Paris

[ewerk 30371]

This happened in France. I think it's got nothing much to do with UK policy and blaming Cameron as the attacks actually happened is simply horrendous.

 

I don't like to speculate but it is likely a group with allegiances to the Charlie Hebdo murderers. That had little to do with foreign policy but was a direct attack on France's secular beliefs and western belief of freedom of speech. These people want to destroy western society, nothing less. Frighteningly a BBC poll, scientifically conducted, showed 20% of UK Muslims were sympathetic with this cause.

 

But aye, it's the US and the UK's fault of course.

 

 

He said the gunmen took 20 hostages, and he heard one of them tell their captives: "It's the fault of Hollande, it's the fault of your president, he should not have intervened in Syria".

[Gemmill 44498]

This happened in France. I think it's got nothing much to do with UK policy and blaming Cameron as the attacks actually happened is simply horrendous.

 

I don't like to speculate but it is likely a group with allegiances to the Charlie Hebdo murderers. That had little to do with foreign policy but was a direct attack on France's secular beliefs and western belief of freedom of speech. These people want to destroy western society, nothing less. Frighteningly a BBC poll, scientifically conducted, showed 20% of UK Muslims were sympathetic with this cause.

 

But aye, it's the US and the UK's fault of course.

 

So the impact of UK and US foreign policy in generating extremism can be disregarded completely because this took place in France. Maybe it's just easier to get away with shit like this there. I'd say your theory linking it to Charlie Hebdo is at least as ridiculous as saying that the US and UK's perpetual war on terror might have been a factor.

 

As for Cameron, the bloke gave a press conference yesterday personally thanking the US for dropping some bombs on Syria ffs. He deserves all the criticism he gets.

[Dr Gloom 21847]

I'm not blaming myself, but if you don't think that the UK and US government are playing a part in the perpetuation of this sort of thing, then you're being wilfully ignorant imo.

The west did not create the Islamist terrorist's warped view of religion and the world. We didn't create jihad. Military intervention has helped them gain sympathy to their cause and recruit more terrorists, yes, but I don't think you need we do too much in the way of collective soul searching when you look at what happened yesterday. They're animals. No one made them target civilians.

[Renton 21393]

So the impact of UK and US foreign policy in generating extremism can be disregarded completely because this took place in France. Maybe it's just easier to get away with shit like this there. I'd say your theory linking it to Charlie Hebdo is at least as ridiculous as saying that the US and UK's perpetual war on terror might have been a factor.

 

As for Cameron, the bloke gave a press conference yesterday personally thanking the US for dropping some bombs on Syria ffs. He deserves all the criticism he gets.

You know, I don't really give a shit what they say their motives were, these people clearly hate western secular democracy and are out to destroy it from within.

 

I'd probably prefer it personally if we had no further involvement in any of these middle eastern countries, but I'm not naive enough to think that will stop these acts. Again, journalists at Charlie Hebdo were murdered for drawing cartoons. Yesterday people were murdered for attending a football match or a heavy metal gig. Yet you think the underlying problem is Cameron? Sorry, that's just insane in my eyes.

[Renton 21393]

The west did not create the Islamist terrorist's warped view of religion and the world. We didn't create jihad. Military intervention has helped them gain sympathy to their cause and recruit more terrorists, yes, but I don't think you need we do too much in the way of collective soul searching when you look at what happened yesterday. They're animals. No one made them target civilians.

Exactly. What we need to worry about is how many of these animals there are (hundreds, thousands?), not what Cameron said after the successful assassination of a murderous butcher.

[Gemmill 44498]

Nobody is denying that what they've done is appalling, and nor is anyone trying to absolve them of responsibility. It's simply a matter of recognising the role that the West has played and is playing in stoking the flames.

[Renton 21393]

Nobody is denying that what they've done is appalling, and nor is anyone trying to absolve them of responsibility. It's simply a matter of recognising the role that the West has played and is playing in stoking the flames.

Fair enough, but do you really think that is the fundamental problem? Would different foreign policies have averted 9/11, Madrid, 7/7, Hebdo, this, and all the other atrocities? Maybe some of them, but not all imo. For me, the problem is much more fundamental than that. It's a result of fundamental incompatabilities with certain brands if Islam and western secular culture and its not going away.

[Dr Gloom 21847]

We fanned the flames but I don't think we created this particular brand of evil

[Dr Gloom 21847]

I wonder if we'd be better served by withdrawing from the Middle East entirely and let them butcher each other. Perhaps then they'd look to murder fewer innocent civilians in the west.

 

But while the west he been rightly criticised for some disastrous foreign interventions, it could be accused of failing to intervene when conflicts create humanitarian crises.

[Rayvin 5186]

Fair enough, but do you really think that is the fundamental problem? Would different foreign policies have averted 9/11, Madrid, 7/7, Hebdo, this, and all the other atrocities? Maybe some of them, but not all imo. For me, the problem is much more fundamental than that. It's a result of fundamental incompatabilities with certain brands if Islam and western secular culture and its not going away.

 

They may well be lashing out anyway as a result of religion, but they wouldn't necessarily be lashing out at us. We haven't caused it but we definitely made ourselves a target - and have probably contributed to bolstering their numbers.

 

Either way, it's becoming increasingly difficult to see how we can resolve this without becoming aggressive. Cameron will probably get the backing he needs to launch us into Syria following this.

 

Absolute disgrace what has happened in France, a real tragedy.

[PaddockLad 17124]

Fair enough, but do you really think that is the fundamental problem? Would different foreign policies have averted 9/11, Madrid, 7/7, Hebdo, this, and all the other atrocities? Maybe some of them, but not all imo. For me, the problem is much more fundamental than that. It's a result of fundamental incompatabilities with certain brands if Islam and western secular culture and its not going away.

The CIA funded, trained and equipped Bin Laden when it suited them in the 80s and I think it's fair to say he properly let the genie out the bottle. Fundamental Wahhabism didn't really affect the west until the yanks got into bed with the Saudis for their oil. So I do think it indeed does all go back to foreign and economic policy. I don't think the west knew what it was fucking with, or thought they could control it easily, or didn't give a fuck. Probably a mixture of all three.

[Renton 21393]

@@Rayvin

 

If drawing a cartoon makes us a target then we have to make ourselves targets. We shouldn't budge an inch on defending our freedoms in our continent.

 

I find this particularly depressing as I've always loved the French belief in "Liberté, égalité, fraternité". I think though a lot of even moderate Muslims don't buy into this. Where's the equality for women or various other groups? Where's the freedom to express yourself, or heaven forbid, cease to be a Muslim (ie coomit apostasy). Do Muslims in France believe more in solidarity for the nation they live in or some other pan-national concept concerning their religion?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Renton

[Dr Gloom 21847]

All religion is fucked, but Islam is unquestionably the most fucked

[Park Life 71]

Firstly this is a shameful and cowardly attack on all levels regardless of the perceived motivation.

 

But if we are to have an overview and if we are to rebuild and repair, our Western leaders recent history of psychopathic interventions (against the wishes of the mass of the population) and unethical Geo-political cosy partnerships with funders of terrorism worldwide (Saudi, Qatar, UAE) has to be addressed.

 

Wahhabism has been going only a hundred years and is the most perverse, archaic and brutal form of Islam on the planet and its dream has always been to stoke a perpetual war between Sunni and Shia who for decades lived side by side in many secular countries (Iraq, Libya, Syria)...and dozens of others.

 

It has suited the purposes of the elite to create failed states, to spread fear in host communities, to divide peoples, to spread the never ending drivel of cynical propaganda, to arm, to toy with our hopes and destroy the future of our children because they will never be affected. They live in a different world, their children go to the best schools, they see profit and exploitation regardless of race or religion as their primary goal, to drive down wages, lock in surveillance and the police state. Make no mistake, these events are a godsend to them and whatever pantomime they give in front of the camera, behind the scenes the champagne will be flowing.

 

The war drums aka the profit machine will now beat louder than ever.

 

I said in the Syria thread a couple of weeks ago that the war is coming to Europe. It's coming to Europe because we and the greater Europe are in their way and need to be taught a lesson regarding our 'rights', our wages, our pensions our generally decent attempts at multiculturalism and our failure to fully get behind the military adventurism of the internationalist cabal.

[Happy Face 29]

Glad to hear you and yours are all OK Chez.

 

Horrible stuff

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

Turns out my best mate is a big closet racist. Shutting the borders is the solution apparently. I pointed out the July 7 bombers were born and bred in the uk but it seems now is not the time for common sense. I feel like Mark in that peep show episode

[Renton 21393]

Turns out my best mate is a big closet racist. Shutting the borders is the solution apparently. I pointed out the July 7 bombers were born and bred in the uk but it seems now is not the time for common sense. I feel like Mark in that peep show episode

How is he a racist?

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

Because the inference is all Muslims are terrorists (he posted some long winded multiple choice question about letting water in your boat and wondering why it sinks)

[Renton 21393]

You're conflating race and religion.

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

And your starting an argument over a Facebook post you haven't even seen.

 

''Some definitions of racism also include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes.''

 

He's definitely a racist. I know you lost your last row with Gemmil but I'm not going to get into another one on here with you

[Happy Face 29]

[Happy Face 29]

[Park Life 71]

Spot on those.

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

https://m.facebook.com/rabah.jl/posts/987547977972273

 

Sums up the entire clusterfuck quite nicely

[Renton 21393]

And your starting an argument over a Facebook post you haven't even seen.

 

''Some definitions of racism also include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes.''

 

He's definitely a racist. I know you lost your last row with Gemmil but I'm not going to get into another one on here with you

So by disliking a particular religion or religions, you're racist? Count me as a racist then. Pathetic attempt to avoid discourse from the man who last night blamed this on Obama and Cameron.