Alex 35063 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Do they have the burqa in pakistan? Yes. Is this a quiz now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Do they have the burqa in pakistan? yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33141 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters, Not to do as I have done! Spend your life in sincere misery, in the house of the rising sun. (Koran 33:59) It's amazing what the mind sees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 yeah But only by a minority in the rural pashtun areas, so it's not really part of his culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 But only by a minority in the rural pashtun areas, so it's not really part of his culture. That's like saying Welsh mountain hermits who barely speak English aren't part of British culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35063 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 It's more like saying they aren't representative, which is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 That's like saying Welsh mountain hermits who barely speak English aren't part of British culture. And would you be happy answering quastions on the habits of welsh mountain hermits as being representative of your culture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 not of the majority, no. but it is a part of pakistani culture and i wonder what a moderate muslim like aimaad makes of it, other than what he's already said about it being the woman's right to choose to wear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 And would you be happy answering quastions on the habits of welsh mountain hermits as being representative of your culture? yes. the last time i checked welsh mountain women couldn't feel compelled to cover their faces in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Bu t paedophilia us not actually part of the religion, can you honestly not see the difference? "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 yes. the last time i checked welsh mountain women couldn't feel compelled to cover their faces in public. I believe they do can you link to this part of my culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 i think a lot of women feel obliged to wear it. why would anyone choose to cover their faces unless there was a weight of cultural pressure on them to so, derived from a nonsensical religion? So its people twisting stuff to suit their own needs then right? Which is what I was going on about from the start. i know you respect a muslim woman's decision to choose whether to wear it or not. but what do you think of what the burqa represents? is it a part of your culture, or religion, that you're proud of? do you agree with what it represents? is the right to choose more important than what the thing that is being chosen symbolises? and where do you stand on what your religion says about homosexuality? if it's a matter of choice, shouldn't a man have the right to sodomise another man if it's consensual? I think I made it clear its not a part of my religion, doesnt matter if a selected number of people think it is. Not exactly a part of my culture either, like I said even the hijab isnt common here in the cities let alone the burqa. You've probably seen as much of it as I have. You seem to see muslims as some closely knit cult that has fixed rules for everything. There are a billion and a half of us man. Believe it or not we do have different dresses and there are other factors that impact our lifestyle/culture apart from Islam! Go to Kabul and you'll see women going to work in jeans, go north and you'll hardly see them outside their homes. Both are muslim. I already said I dont think women should have to wear the burqa, therefore I obviously dont agree with whatever it is supposed to represent. Well no, that's not my point at all. I have said that whether they are coerced or its voluntary, covering the face is not an action that can be justified in western secular society. It prevents effective communication, it is a security risk, and it is a clear barrier to integration. Many people think it creates an atmosphere of unease, which I agree with. The coercion/misogyny angle is a valid secondary point imo. Remember, we're not talking about cultural norms in Islamic societies here, we're talking about secularised society. This doesn't mean we have freedom to do whatever we want, far from it. We need to have fraternity, shared responsibilities. This to me goes to the heart of the problem. A bunch of women covering their faces is a security risk? I find that hard to grasp. You might want to have a look at foreign policy if security risk is what you're worried about. Bloody hell, how much crime have burqa clad people been responsible for so far? Your second paragraph I agree with however it seems to me when its muslims that ask for this discretion the words freedom of speech come in the way. That's like saying Welsh mountain hermits who barely speak English aren't part of British culture. Most areas of the subcontinent were independently ruled before the Mughal empire came, with very different cultures, languages, economies etc. Im not sure how much that applies to Britain. I've tried answering your question though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I believe they do can you link to this part of my culture. you've lost me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Homosexuality is a different debate altogether, what else are you going to grill me on now? To keep it short, it is explicitly forbidden in Islam and thus that is my position too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) I think I made it clear its not a part of my religion, doesnt matter if a selected number of people think it is. Not exactly a part of my culture either, like I said even the hijab isnt common here in the cities let alone the burqa. You've probably seen as much of it as I have. You seem to see muslims as some closely knit cult that has fixed rules for everything. There are a billion and a half of us man. Believe it or not we do have different dresses and there are other factors that impact our lifestyle/culture apart from Islam! Go to Kabul and you'll see women going to work in jeans, go north and you'll hardly see them outside their homes. Both are muslim. no, not true. i've said from the start that i have no problem with moderate muslims whatsoever. i think the number of syrian refugees that we have accepted is shameful as is the like of nigel farage jumping on the back of the paris attacks to call for us to close our borders when people are fleeing persecution and death. my issue is with the islam the religion and the way some muslims choose to interpret it. i have a problem with all religions, as it happens, so i'm not singling islam out for special treatment. Edited November 17, 2015 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Homosexuality is a different debate altogether, what else are you going to grill me on now? To keep it short, it is explicitly forbidden in Islam and thus that is my position too. right. this is why there are some parts of your religion are not compatible with western secular democracy. islam denies homosexuals of their human rights. i think the same applies to some muslim women. i don't deny that there are many muslim women out there that embrace their head scarf as a symbol of their heritage, or that they want to express the modesty that the koran calls for. and you're absolutely right that not all muslim women wear one, but i suspect that a vast number of those that do cover up feel compelled to do so. Edited November 17, 2015 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21589 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT) Why are you quoting excerpts of the old testament to me? Are you suggesting Catholic (or other denominational groups) have used this text to justify paedophilia? Your logic is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful" i can't believe anyone can read a passage like this and not laugh tbh. why do people still practice this nonsense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 right. this is why there are some parts of your religion are not compatible with western secular democracy. islam denies homosexuals of their human rights. i think the same applies to some muslim women. i don't deny that there are many muslim women out there that embrace their head scarf as a symbol of their heritage, or that they want to express the modesty that the koran calls for. and you're absolutely right that not all muslim women wear one, but i suspect that a vast number of those that do cover up feel compelled to do so. We dont have to be compatible. We just dont have to murder the other party Something like Renton said, shared responsibilities and fraternity etc. Its forgotten a lot of the time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21589 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 So its people twisting stuff to suit their own needs then right? Which is what I was going on about from the start. I think I made it clear its not a part of my religion, doesnt matter if a selected number of people think it is. Not exactly a part of my culture either, like I said even the hijab isnt common here in the cities let alone the burqa. You've probably seen as much of it as I have. You seem to see muslims as some closely knit cult that has fixed rules for everything. There are a billion and a half of us man. Believe it or not we do have different dresses and there are other factors that impact our lifestyle/culture apart from Islam! Go to Kabul and you'll see women going to work in jeans, go north and you'll hardly see them outside their homes. Both are muslim. I already said I dont think women should have to wear the burqa, therefore I obviously dont agree with whatever it is supposed to represent. A bunch of women covering their faces is a security risk? I find that hard to grasp. You might want to have a look at foreign policy if security risk is what you're worried about. Bloody hell, how much crime have burqa clad people been responsible for so far? Your second paragraph I agree with however it seems to me when its muslims that ask for this discretion the words freedom of speech come in the way. Most areas of the subcontinent were independently ruled before the Mughal empire came, with very different cultures, languages, economies etc. Im not sure how much that applies to Britain. I've tried answering your question though. Yep, Muslim terrorists have used the Burqa ro avoid capture in the UK before. I find Muslim insistence on protecting this practice unsettling. Can't you see that its just not acceptable to most in our society? It's hypocritical too, plenty of muslim countries restrict what westerners wear, and that is accepted by us. Coming from Pakistan, perhaps you are unaware of concerns over integration here, or that multiculturalism isn't working as intended. Having women subjugated in Burkas just isn't acceptable imo in 21st century UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33141 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 It's a pity ALL religions and holy bibles don't get updated and evolve like countries laws and societies do. When was the bible last 'edited'? Around 400 AD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Homosexuality is a different debate altogether, what else are you going to grill me on now? To keep it short, it is explicitly forbidden in Islam and thus that is my position too. See that is the real problem with religion, blind following of what you have been taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44811 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Yep, Muslim terrorists have used the Burqa ro avoid capture in the UK before. I find Muslim insistence on protecting this practice unsettling. Can't you see that its just not acceptable to most in our society? It's hypocritical too, plenty of muslim countries restrict what westerners wear, and that is accepted by us. Coming from Pakistan, perhaps you are unaware of concerns over integration here, or that multiculturalism isn't working as intended. Having women subjugated in Burkas just isn't acceptable imo in 21st century UK. I honestly don't get why it bothers people if someone walks round in a burka. I walk past women wearing one of these things and I just don't care. If she wants to wear it, fine. If she doesn't want to wear it, then it's her look-out. I couldn't give a fuck. I find it a lot less offensive than some minger with her Greggs belly hanging out the bottom of her t-shirt. Why the fuck are people getting themselves animated about this stuff?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2977 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Who are we to tell a religion that tells people what to wear what to wear? Tolerate intolerance today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Yep, Muslim terrorists have used the Burqa ro avoid capture in the UK before. I find Muslim insistence on protecting this practice unsettling. Can't you see that its just not acceptable to most in our society? It's hypocritical too, plenty of muslim countries restrict what westerners wear, and that is accepted by us. Coming from Pakistan, perhaps you are unaware of concerns over integration here, or that multiculturalism isn't working as intended. Having women subjugated in Burkas just isn't acceptable imo in 21st century UK. I dont know, look at Dubai for instance. Or even Turkey. You'll see people in burqas and in mini skirts. Nobody really cares. Of course it cant be the same everywhere. If at some place and time it does become a major security concern than I think we should realise that its possible to dress within what is allowed by Islam and not be a 'concern'. Wont argue too much with that. However then freedom of speech and the likes shoudnt be brandied about when muslims find something offensive, cant have it both ways. See that is the real problem with religion, blind following of what you have been taught. You assume I follow blindly because you do not understand or agree with it. I believe religion is learnt not inherited. And that if Im truly to stand before a God someday then it has to be because its what I thought was right and not just because person xyz or book abc told me to do so. Anyway, I guess this topic has been done to death on the internet already, no real point starting it here again, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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