Paris

[Howmanheyman 33828]

I find it quite sexy. Going to get our lass one

Aye, but you'll expect her to wear it a bit further down her body than her head. THAT ISN'T WHAT IT'S FOR.

[Gemmill 46022]

He'd look like a dark chocolate easter egg.

[Renton 21983]

Tbf CT would suit a burqa.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Renton

[The Fish 10963]

If you're getting it for her I assume you're going to wear it.

Nah, he'll dress up like this and chase her round the house

 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Don't really care about the hijab, it's no different to the Sikh turban or the Jewish yarmulke to be honest.

 

I do find the Niqab and Burka unsettling though.

They're all nonsense, but the other two aren't designed to oppress women.

 

Here's how the Koran mandates the use of veils:

 

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested (Koran 33:59)

 

Now, I'm no scholar but isn't the message there to cover your possession, sorry, your woman up, so your fellow man isn't tempted to rape her?

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

Other faiths and religions have aspects we don't agree with. What gives us the right to tell them it's wrong though? The Church it's one of the most corrupt organisations in the world, routinely cover up paedophiles yet there's not many on here who haven't been married or christened.

 

He without sin and all that shit

[The Fish 10963]

They're all nonsense, but the other two aren't designed to oppress women.

 

Here's how the Koran mandates the use of veils:

 

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested (Koran 33:59)

 

Now, I'm no scholar but isn't the message there to cover your possession, sorry, your woman up, so your fellow man isn't tempted to rape her?

Aye, but does the hijab oppress women? I now see it as a cultural fashion item, rather than a declaration of faith.

 

Niqab and Burka, not so much, the instant gut reaction when I see a woman wearing one is that of pity. "That poor woman, forced to cover up to spare her man's blushes!"

 

Which is stupid because she might have chosen this path for herself against the will of her parents or whatever.

 

Can't help it though, I see that kind of garb and I feel sorry for the woman beneath them.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Other faiths and religions have aspects we don't agree with. What gives us the right to tell them it's wrong though? The Church it's one of the most corrupt organisations in the world, routinely cover up paedophiles yet there's not many on here who haven't been married or christened.

 

He without sin and all that shit

 

christianity is filled with just as much nonsense as the the rest, i agree with you there.

[Renton 21983]

Other faiths and religions have aspects we don't agree with. What gives us the right to tell them it's wrong though? The Church it's one of the most corrupt organisations in the world, routinely cover up paedophiles yet there's not many on here who haven't been married or christened.

 

He without sin and all that shit

Bu t paedophilia us not actually part of the religion, can you honestly not see the difference?

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Aye, but does the hijab oppress women? I now see it as a cultural fashion item, rather than a declaration of faith.

 

Niqab and Burka, not so much, the instant gut reaction when I see a woman wearing one is that of pity. "That poor woman, forced to cover up to spare her man's blushes!"

 

Which is stupid because she might have chosen this path for herself against the will of her parents or whatever.

 

Can't help it though, I see that kind of garb and I feel sorry for the woman beneath them.

 

it's designed to preserve a woman's modesty, and discourage potential molestation, by covering her hair.

 

ironically, it's becoming a fashion item in the west, you now have stores selling designer hijabs, which is great as it gives the muslim women who wear them some form of expression and identity, but it does rather contradict what they were originally designed for.

[The Fish 10963]

Other faiths and religions have aspects we don't agree with. What gives us the right to tell them it's wrong though? The Church it's one of the most corrupt organisations in the world, routinely cover up paedophiles yet there's not many on here who haven't been married or christened.

 

He without sin and all that shit

To be fair, the fact we're free to condemn the crimes of the Catholic church, the atrocities committed by the Lord's Resistance Army, and so on, without fear of prosecution or persecution is why people find things like the niqab and burka so disquieting, isn't it?

[Renton 21983]

Aye, but does the hijab oppress women? I now see it as a cultural fashion item, rather than a declaration of faith.

 

Niqab and Burka, not so much, the instant gut reaction when I see a woman wearing one is that of pity. "That poor woman, forced to cover up to spare her man's blushes!"

 

Which is stupid because she might have chosen this path for herself against the will of her parents or whatever.

 

Can't help it though, I see that kind of garb and I feel sorry for the woman beneath them.

Usually these women are socially isolated and won't interact with annyone in public, especially men. Sometimes you can see them following behind their husbands. Its horrendous and it amazes me the right on brigade defend it.

[The Fish 10963]

 

it's designed to preserve a woman's modesty, and discourage potential molestation, by covering her hair.

 

ironically, it's becoming a fashion item in the west, you now have stores selling designer hijabs, which is great as it gives the muslim women who wear them some form of expression and identity, but it does rather contradict what they were originally designed for.

 

Which is surely how you defeat radicalisation? Bend and mould the culture, don't just bluntly oppose it?

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

Bu t paedophilia us not actually part of the religion, can you honestly not see the difference?

I don't suppose shooting Innocent people is part of the Kuran either? My point is all religion is stupid but if people want to wear a cross or wear a burka then let them get on with it

[Alex 35571]

Other faiths and religions have aspects we don't agree with. What gives us the right to tell them it's wrong though? The Church it's one of the most corrupt organisations in the world, routinely cover up paedophiles yet there's not many on here who haven't been married or christened.

 

He without sin and all that shit

For that argument to have any validity it would require people who are against the veil to not have a problem with paedo priests. That clearly isn't the case. Equally the argument about being Christened is fallacious given, except in very rare circumstances, the person being Christened has no choice in the matter. Marriage is a legal concept in any case but I doubt the majority of people who have a wedding service in a church are religious anyway. And when they are doing that I would guess it's almost always what the bride wants so it's not analogous with the wearing of a veil beyond the argument that both might be considered to be cultural norms

[ewerk 31195]

My point is all religion is stupid but if people want to wear a cross or wear a burka then let them get on with it

 

Yeah but do they have the choice not to wear it?

[Dr Gloom 22143]

I don't suppose shooting Innocent people is part of the Kuran either? My point is all religion is stupid but if people want to wear a cross or wear a burka then let them get on with it

 

there is a distinction though - the cross is a symbol of faith, the burqa is one of oppression.

[Renton 21983]

I don't suppose shooting Innocent people is part of the Kuran either? My point is all religion is stupid but if people want to wear a cross or wear a burka then let them get on with it

According to the IS interpretation of the Koran, yes, murdering civilians is fair game. Paedophilia has never been part of Catholic doctrine. Howay, this argument is absurd, you must know this.

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

That's your perception though. Have you asked a woman wearing one if she minds? There's plenty of Muslim women don't wear them too

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

According to the IS interpretation of the Koran, yes, murdering civilians is fair game. Paedophilia has never been part of Catholic doctrine. Howay, this argument is absurd, you must know this.

Maybe priests interpret the bible as saying little boys need love. Nutters will interpret what they want

[toonotl 3106]

SEW attacked from all sides, and rapidly losing the plot.

 

On a scale of white male privilege to feminist. How oppressed are you right now?

[Renton 21983]

That's your perception though. Have you asked a woman wearing one if she minds? There's plenty of Muslim women don't wear them too

Yeah,because they're so approachable. Do you not think eye contact is actually quite important for normal human interaction? In some sense, I don't care if she wants to wear a burqa or not, I think the action of wearing has implications for other people which shouldn't be ignored. Having acceptable dress codes enforced isn't really a massive ask imo.

[Alex 35571]

Maybe priests interpret the bible as saying little boys need love. Nutters will interpret what they want

Is that why they try to cover it up then? Because they think they're doing God's work? Howay, man

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

I'm hardly losing the plot, I know very little about any religion, I'm as atheist as they come.

 

The point I'm trying to get across, and apparently not doing a god job of, is what right does a non Muslim have to tell a Muslim what they can and can't wear if it's part of their religion?

[aimaad22 4222]

Aimaad, first of all apologies if I was blunt yesterday, wasn't having the best of days. Firstly though of course I agree with you regards Saudi, however the reason the west has a relationship with them is pretty obvious. Once our addiction to oil runs its course things will change with respect to our relationship.

 

But regarding the veil, sorry, we will never agree. You may think banning it contradicts freedom but actually it's use violates the over tennets, that of equality and fraternity. Covering the face us just not acceptable to any on the west, it's oppressive, it prevents communication, and it is a security threat. It is undoubtedly misogynistic regardless of what the wearers say (many of whom are undoubtedly coerced). It's a clear block to integration. Besides, if western men and women are expected to observe dress codes in Muslim countries, why do you think it's okay for Muslim women not to observe western dress codes? It's issues like these (as well as polygamy, FGM, halal, sharia, censorship, abuse of western women etc) which are causing so many issues for us imo.

 

Nah thats quite alright I was pretty blunt myself. Oil is the reason yes. Which is why I keep saying greed and power overrules everything else. Always has always will.

 

For my view of the veil see below.

 

I agree with Gideon Rachman. In the FT piece I posted earlier he says multiculturalism is the answer and is worth fighting for. But in order for it to thrive, some cultures have to openly disown acts that other cultures within the same society find abhorrent. As evidenced in this thread, progressive Europeans bash their governments plenty for their role in this mess.

 

Serious question on your religion, where do you stand on the burqa? You come across as an intelligent guy, and a moderate Muslim. Does it have a place in secular society? I have to congratulate France for its policy there. I don't honestly believe that Muslim women who have grown up with western values want to be covered head to toe. Is France banning the burka oppressing Muslim women or liberating them? There are are plenty of things embedded within all cultures that are fucked up and, and which people reject over time.

 

the west is far from perfect - women and gay people still fight for true equality to this day, but the notion that women don't have the right to show their face in public goes back to my original point about multiculturalism.

 

The European Court of human rights upheld France's decision. From Wikipedia:

 

Firstly, you cant even say the veil is imposed by Islam. You posted the Quran verse yourself. Most muslim scholars agree the veil is not a requirement, covering the head is considered sufficient. My mother doesnt wear a burqa, my sister doesnt, in fact cant think of a single person in my family who does. They dont even take the hijab. I dont think anyone should wear a burqa, it would be inconvenient for the wearer if anything. But if anyone wants to, I dont care, let them. I cant on one hand say its ok if someone wants to dress less 'modestly' because its their right as a free human being and then lecture someone for wearing more than is necessary. Doesnt make sense to me at least. We've got far bigger problems ffs.

 

You could again debate how much the veil has to do with religion and how much with culture, say. Its very common in Afghanistan and northern areas of Pakistan, some areas of India. But how often do you see it in Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, Malaysia etc.? Take Pakistan. Like I said burqas are common in the north. Yet when you go south they almost disappear, although even those areas are around 98% muslim. Because the culture/traditions change quite a bit once you start moving down south. Even the hijab is not that common, although that IS considered an Islamic requirement. That is why sometimes its a bit amusing to see the West fall all over themselves over the burqa, its a bit of a non issue here really.

 

I'm pleasantly surprised at your stance on some of these matters CT, given you're attitudes towards poor people/right wing leanings

 

Aye stop it CT, you're unsettling me