Paris

[aimaad22 4222]

I don't respect aspects of any culture that oppress someone on grounds of their sex or sexuality. Tolerance only goes so far.

 

Look mate, you seem like a nice lad but you are religious. And religions are all mumbo jumbo nonsense in my opinion so you'll have to forgive me for coming across like a godless kafir. Your religion just happens to be one that seems most vulnerable to interpretation and manipulation.

 

To address your question directly, I don't want Muslim community leaders to condem the murder of innocent civilians because it'll make me feel warm and fuzzy, or because Fox News told me to. It's because it's the right fucking thing to do.

 

Haha. This is what is so fascinating for me. Some of the people in my country would say religious is the last thing I am. Gives you an idea of just how widely different two peoples can look at the same thing at.

 

Meh. You've had your condemnations, if you look properly that is. Not that I think they serve any purpose.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/11/14/Arab-states-denounce-Paris-attacks-as-violation-of-human-values-.html

 

You don't seem to get what our values are, or more specifically what the values of France are. Your religion's values are simply at odds with that of France. Actually a lot of Muslims surveyed admit this. Freedom, equality, fraternity. Are any of those concepts embraced by Islam? Not to my mind they're not, happy for you to provide examples to the contrary like.

 

Ah. So then freedom is what you think is right or considered acceptable? Everyone else's opinions are freedom only if they conform to yours. If muslim women there are happy with their veils, its not alright because we dont like it. Therefore its oppression. Anybody thought about why so many French muslim women took to the streets to protest the ban? I mean, they'd ought to have been delighted right? The state had granted them freedom from their evil oppressive husbands. Guess the poor girls were to oppressed to know when they'd been liberated.

 

The desperation to point everything at Islam gets a bit funny at times. I see how women in the West dressed, how much involvement in society they had, when they got the vote etc. They didnt have it all from day one did they? Was it because you were all backward Christians once? I said before, most muslim nations are young and developing. Has it crossed your mind that some of these issues are socio-economic that more or less all countries have had to face in their development? In fact when you look at some of Western history I thank the bloody heavens that we've so far not gone through many of the things they did. Aye it still doesnt justify a lot of the shite that does happen here, but like I said before thats mankind for you, never seems to learn the easy way.

 

The likes of Saudi Arabia is another thing though. Im with you on them, I'll be the first one cheering their demise. The house of Saud is an abomination. They're a monarchy who'll do anything to preserve their power and have caused more suffering to the so called muslim world than Israel or the US ever could. Again makes you question the West's moral high ground, principles of democracy and freedom and displays those striking double standards with the support thats given to Saudia. The most tyrant, oppressive, undemocratic muslim regime on the planet and yet they're key strategic partners to the US and its allies. Says it all really.

[aimaad22 4222]

[tweet]

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[aimaad22 4222]

To address your question directly, I don't want Muslim community leaders to condem the murder of innocent civilians because it'll make me feel warm and fuzzy, or because Fox News told me to. It's because it's the right fucking thing to do.

 

Came across this as well. You'll find a lot if you look

https://www.zaytuna.edu/misc/an_open_letter_on_the_mayhem_in_paris

[Park Life 71]

The refusal by Western leaders and MSM to take Saudi and Qatar to task says it all Aimaad. Here sponsor another PL club, here have a World Cup...You want to buy more jets and tanks you say?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Park Life

[ewerk 31195]

Inevitably half of American state governors have declared that they aren't going to accept any more Syrian refugees. For the record, the United States have accepted a grand total of 1,500 Syrian refugees in the last four years.

[ewerk 31195]

BTW, has it been confirmed that any of the attackers were actually Syrians? I know one of them was found with a Syrian passport but you can buy those on Amazon.

[Park Life 71]

BTW, has it been confirmed that any of the attackers were actually Syrians? I know one of them was found with a Syrian passport but you can buy those on Amazon.

Nope. They tried but failed on that one. Couple of them had been out to Syria done some fighting and come back. Isis has run out of places to go that might be easy. Surrounded as they are now on all sides and people leaving in droves.

 

These attacks are primarily cause they want 'boots on the ground' cause that will attract more to the cause.

 

Isis are the donkeys of terror groups. The reason AlQ never wanted land is that its too easy to infiltrate and attack. And unlike say the Taliban in Afghanistan there aren't enough locals to make it feel real.

 

America say they hit some of these tankers that are shuttling oil around, they say they left them alone for a couple of years cause they didn't want civilian casualties. I don't know who believes this shit.

 

Putin in #Turkey: I provided examples based on our data on the financing of different #ISIL units by private individuals.

"This money, as we have established, comes from 40 countries and, there are some of the G20 members among them”, Putin says

"I’ve shown our colleagues photos taken from space & from aircraft which clearly demonstrate the scale of the illegal trade in oil"

Edited November 17, 2015 by Park Life

[ewerk 31195]

[aimaad22 4222]

The refusal by Western leaders and MSM to take Saudi and Qatar to task says it all Aimaad. Here sponsor another PL club, here have a World Cup...You want to buy more jets and tanks you say?

 

You were saying

 

[tweet]

[/tweet]

[Park Life 71]

Here:

 

Lord Reid, secretary of state for defence from 2005 to 2006, said in 2008 that he had become group consultant to G4S, the security company that worked closely with the Ministry of Defence in Iraq.

Michael Portillo, (pictured) the secretary of state for defence from 1995 to 1997, became non-executive director of BAE Systems in 2002 before stepping down in 2006.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, the chief of staff from 2006-2009, retired from the RAF last year and will become senior military adviser to BAE Systems in January.

Admiral Sir John Slater, the former first sea lord, left the military in 1998 and became a director and senior adviser to Lockheed Martin UK.

Major-General Graham Binns left the military this year and is chief executive of Aegis Defence Services, a leading security company.

Sir Kevin Tebbit, permanent under secretary at the MoD, is chairman of Finmeccanica UK, owner of Westland helicopters.

David Gould, the former chief operating officer of the MoD's procurement division, is now chairman of Selex Systems, part of Finmeccanica.

 

They absolutely fuckin love it.

 

Tony Blair was renting some of his properties to Thales btw the 7th biggest defence contractor on the planet.

 

The psychopathic killing machine is only momentarily dulled by expensive wines in gentleman's clubs.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Park Life

[Christmas Tree 4821]

 

Haha. This is what is so fascinating for me. Some of the people in my country would say religious is the last thing I am. Gives you an idea of just how widely different two peoples can look at the same thing at.

 

Meh. You've had your condemnations, if you look properly that is. Not that I think they serve any purpose.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/11/14/Arab-states-denounce-Paris-attacks-as-violation-of-human-values-.html

 

 

Ah. So then freedom is what you think is right or considered acceptable? Everyone else's opinions are freedom only if they conform to yours. If muslim women there are happy with their veils, its not alright because we dont like it. Therefore its oppression. Anybody thought about why so many French muslim women took to the streets to protest the ban? I mean, they'd ought to have been delighted right? The state had granted them freedom from their evil oppressive husbands. Guess the poor girls were to oppressed to know when they'd been liberated.

 

The desperation to point everything at Islam gets a bit funny at times. I see how women in the West dressed, how much involvement in society they had, when they got the vote etc. They didnt have it all from day one did they? Was it because you were all backward Christians once? I said before, most muslim nations are young and developing. Has it crossed your mind that some of these issues are socio-economic that more or less all countries have had to face in their development? In fact when you look at some of Western history I thank the bloody heavens that we've so far not gone through many of the things they did. Aye it still doesnt justify a lot of the shite that does happen here, but like I said before thats mankind for you, never seems to learn the easy way.

 

The likes of Saudi Arabia is another thing though. Im with you on them, I'll be the first one cheering their demise. The house of Saud is an abomination. They're a monarchy who'll do anything to preserve their power and have caused more suffering to the so called muslim world than Israel or the US ever could. Again makes you question the West's moral high ground, principles of democracy and freedom and displays those striking double standards with the support thats given to Saudia. The most tyrant, oppressive, undemocratic muslim regime on the planet and yet they're key strategic partners to the US and its allies. Says it all really.

Totally spot on again.

 

Not that long ago that Racism, women were covered head to toe and corporal punishment were all acceptable even though they're all abhorrent to today's society. And that's in a thriving democracy.

 

The West is full of hypocrisy.

[Renton 21983]

Totally spot on again.

 

Not that long ago that Racism, women were covered head to toe and corporal punishment were all acceptable even though they're all abhorrent to today's society. And that's in a thriving democracy.

 

The West is full of hypocrisy.

Women were covered head to toe in the west? Really? Anyway of these things are in the past then I hardly see how the west is being hypocritical. We live in the present after all.

 

Aimaad, first of all apologies if I was blunt yesterday, wasn't having the best of days. Firstly though of course I agree with you regards Saudi, however the reason the west has a relationship with them is pretty obvious. Once our addiction to oil runs its course things will change with respect to our relationship.

 

But regarding the veil, sorry, we will never agree. You may think banning it contradicts freedom but actually it's use violates the over tennets, that of equality and fraternity. Covering the face us just not acceptable to any on the west, it's oppressive, it prevents communication, and it is a security threat. It is undoubtedly misogynistic regardless of what the wearers say (many of whom are undoubtedly coerced). It's a clear block to integration. Besides, if western men and women are expected to observe dress codes in Muslim countries, why do you think it's okay for Muslim women not to observe western dress codes? It's issues like these (as well as polygamy, FGM, halal, sharia, censorship, abuse of western women etc) which are causing so many issues for us imo.

[Renton 21983]

BTW, has it been confirmed that any of the attackers were actually Syrians? I know one of them was found with a Syrian passport but you can buy those on Amazon.

The BBC is reporting that the finger prints of Ahmad Al-Mohammed match those of a migrant coming through the Greek isles on October. If true this is a massive issue. Let's be honest, Greece doesn't have a clue who they have let through.

[Christmas Tree 4821]

Women were covered head to toe in the west? Really? Anyway of these things are in the past then I hardly see how the west is being hypocritical. We live in the present after all.

 

Aimaad, first of all apologies if I was blunt yesterday, wasn't having the best of days. Firstly though of course I agree with you regards Saudi, however the reason the west has a relationship with them is pretty obvious. Once our addiction to oil runs its course things will change with respect to our relationship.

 

But regarding the veil, sorry, we will never agree. You may think banning it contradicts freedom but actually it's use violates the over tennets, that of equality and fraternity. Covering the face us just not acceptable to any on the west, it's oppressive, it prevents communication, and it is a security threat. It is undoubtedly misogynistic regardless of what the wearers say (many of whom are undoubtedly coerced). It's a clear block to integration. Besides, if western men and women are expected to observe dress codes in Muslim countries, why do you think it's okay for Muslim women not to observe western dress codes? It's issues like these (as well as polygamy, FGM, halal, sharia, censorship, abuse of western women etc) which are causing so many issues for us imo.

Did anyone over here have a great problem with any woman wearing a veil until the media started hyping it up a few years ago?

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

At that time, yes, I gave my opinion that J69's comments on Cameron etc were out of order. There's a time and a place, I think he actually agreed. I thought it was crass more than anything else, including it being idiotic (thats just my opinion though).

 

Not sure what that's got to with the taboo that definitely exists about criticising a particular religion now though? Is it actually possible to discuss how Islam can be integrated into a secular county, and what issues are created? Or shall we just plod on and accept that causing offence is just not acceptable? Genuinely interested in this topic.v

I didn't agree with you then and I don't now. you're condescension of other people's opinions is what is embarrassing

[Dr Gloom 22143]

 

Haha. This is what is so fascinating for me. Some of the people in my country would say religious is the last thing I am. Gives you an idea of just how widely different two peoples can look at the same thing at.

 

Meh. You've had your condemnations, if you look properly that is. Not that I think they serve any purpose.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/11/14/Arab-states-denounce-Paris-attacks-as-violation-of-human-values-.html

 

 

Ah. So then freedom is what you think is right or considered acceptable? Everyone else's opinions are freedom only if they conform to yours. If muslim women there are happy with their veils, its not alright because we dont like it. Therefore its oppression. Anybody thought about why so many French muslim women took to the streets to protest the ban? I mean, they'd ought to have been delighted right? The state had granted them freedom from their evil oppressive husbands. Guess the poor girls were to oppressed to know when they'd been liberated.

 

The desperation to point everything at Islam gets a bit funny at times. I see how women in the West dressed, how much involvement in society they had, when they got the vote etc. They didnt have it all from day one did they? Was it because you were all backward Christians once? I said before, most muslim nations are young and developing. Has it crossed your mind that some of these issues are socio-economic that more or less all countries have had to face in their development? In fact when you look at some of Western history I thank the bloody heavens that we've so far not gone through many of the things they did. Aye it still doesnt justify a lot of the shite that does happen here, but like I said before thats mankind for you, never seems to learn the easy way.

 

The likes of Saudi Arabia is another thing though. Im with you on them, I'll be the first one cheering their demise. The house of Saud is an abomination. They're a monarchy who'll do anything to preserve their power and have caused more suffering to the so called muslim world than Israel or the US ever could. Again makes you question the West's moral high ground, principles of democracy and freedom and displays those striking double standards with the support thats given to Saudia. The most tyrant, oppressive, undemocratic muslim regime on the planet and yet they're key strategic partners to the US and its allies. Says it all really.

I agree with Gideon Rachman. In the FT piece I posted earlier he says multiculturalism is the answer and is worth fighting for. But in order for it to thrive, some cultures have to openly disown acts that other cultures within the same society find abhorrent. As evidenced in this thread, progressive Europeans bash their governments plenty for their role in this mess.

 

Serious question on your religion, where do you stand on the burqa? You come across as an intelligent guy, and a moderate Muslim. Does it have a place in secular society? I have to congratulate France for its policy there. I don't honestly believe that Muslim women who have grown up with western values want to be covered head to toe. Is France banning the burka oppressing Muslim women or liberating them? There are are plenty of things embedded within all cultures that are fucked up and, and which people reject over time.

 

the west is far from perfect - women and gay people still fight for true equality to this day, but the notion that women don't have the right to show their face in public goes back to my original point about multiculturalism.

 

The European Court of human rights upheld France's decision. From Wikipedia:

Dalil Boubakeur, the grand mufti of the Paris Mosque, the largest and most influential in France, testified to parliament during the bill's preparation. He commented that the niqāb was not prescribed in Islam, that in the French and contemporary context its spread was associated with radicalisation and criminal behavior, and that its wearing was inconsistent with France's concept of the secular state.

[The Fish 10963]

Women were covered head to toe in the west? Really? Anyway of these things are in the past then I hardly see how the west is being hypocritical. We live in the present after all.

 

Aimaad, first of all apologies if I was blunt yesterday, wasn't having the best of days. Firstly though of course I agree with you regards Saudi, however the reason the west has a relationship with them is pretty obvious. Once our addiction to oil runs its course things will change with respect to our relationship.

 

But regarding the veil, sorry, we will never agree. You may think banning it contradicts freedom but actually it's use violates the over tennets, that of equality and fraternity. Covering the face us just not acceptable to any on the west, it's oppressive, it prevents communication, and it is a security threat. It is undoubtedly misogynistic regardless of what the wearers say (many of whom are undoubtedly coerced). It's a clear block to integration. Besides, if western men and women are expected to observe dress codes in Muslim countries, why do you think it's okay for Muslim women not to observe western dress codes? It's issues like these (as well as polygamy, FGM, halal, sharia, censorship, abuse of western women etc) which are causing so many issues for us imo.

Isn't that an African problem, rather than a Muslim problem?

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

At that time, yes, I gave my opinion that J69's comments on Cameron etc were out of order. There's a time and a place, I think he actually agreed. I thought it was crass more than anything else, including it being idiotic (thats just my opinion though).

 

Not sure what that's got to with the taboo that definitely exists about criticising a particular religion now though? Is it actually possible to discuss how Islam can be integrated into a secular county, and what issues are created? Or shall we just plod on and accept that causing offence is just not acceptable? Genuinely interested in this topic.v

Point 1 - you pulled me up because you thought what I said was crass (and presumably offensive to you)

 

Point 2 - we should be allowed to have a free discussion on the topic without people taking offence?

 

Howay man

Edited November 17, 2015 by StraightEdgeWizard

[Renton 21983]

Did anyone over here have a great problem with any woman wearing a veil until the media started hyping it up a few years ago?

Well it wasn't so common a few years back. Iirc the last census showed the Muslim population in the UK doubled in the last 10 years, but anecdotally I think the amount of more orthodox Muslims has increased disproportionately more. Certainly in Islamic countries the use of full covering has massively increased.

 

Are you honestly okay with it? Wod you be happy for your GP to be covered? Of your children's school teacher? I just think this kind of segregation is completely alien to us.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Did anyone over here have a great problem with any woman wearing a veil until the media started hyping it up a few years ago?

The niqab and the burqa, yes. I've always had a problem with those. They deny women the right to be seen in public.

 

The hijab is less offensive but it's an extension of the same belief system. A religion that can be interpreted to say that women are not equal.

[Alex 35571]

Did anyone over here have a great problem with any woman wearing a veil until the media started hyping it up a few years ago?

Bet you'd have a problem if it was, for example, a little closer to home.

[The Fish 10963]

Don't really care about the hijab, it's no different to the Sikh turban or the Jewish yarmulke to be honest.

 

I do find the Niqab and Burka unsettling though.

[Christmas Tree 4821]

Well it wasn't so common a few years back. Iirc the last census showed the Muslim population in the UK doubled in the last 10 years, but anecdotally I think the amount of more orthodox Muslims has increased disproportionately more. Certainly in Islamic countries the use of full covering has massively increased.

 

Are you honestly okay with it? Wod you be happy for your GP to be covered? Of your children's school teacher? I just think this kind of segregation is completely alien to us.

I find it quite sexy. Going to get our lass one

[Alex 35571]

If you're getting it for her I assume you're going to wear it.

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

I'm pleasantly surprised at your stance on some of these matters CT, given you're attitudes towards poor people/right wing leanings

Edited November 17, 2015 by StraightEdgeWizard