Paris

[PaddockLad 17112]

It's easy to hitch your hatred of others and lust for recognition and resources to a relgious cause and it's been practiced the world over for 1000 years or so. At the end of the day it's just men narcissistically hell bent on power,land and money using one cult (or political system, comrade, or Mr President, delete as applicable) or another to attract other evil bastards to their cause while good people sit around and stick their heads in the sand. That sadly includes us all. There's no hope for the human race, there was no hope when a few catholic Germans murdered 6million Jews in the living memory of my parents, nor was there any hope when orthodox Christians went into Srbenica and killed 6000 Moslem boys and men 20 years ago. am not comparing figures or size of tragedy or anything like that, but I don't see huge amounts of difference in any of it tbh. I know a lot of you are big on equivalence but am not really suggesting accurate or even general comparisons can be made. I think the best way I can put it is all wars are economic in some way or other, and the easiest way to trigger one is to turn one neighbour against another.

Edited November 16, 2015 by PaddockLad

[NJS 4373]

Both those things involved the tribalism of religion though PL.

Edited November 16, 2015 by NJS

[PaddockLad 17112]

Agreed, but for me religion is just the conduit, or m.o. If you like. The root cause is just mans inhumanity to his fellow man. Lust for power status and wealth. Don't know if this has been posted..

 

http://gu.com/p/4e8b4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[NJS 4373]

It is interesting to read the questions NJS linked to and note the turns of phrase used. Also note that the most interesting question isn't asked outright.

 

"Is killing people justifiable?"

When I was looking for that one I also found a one which globally asked Muslims whether they supported sharia as the legitimate law of the land and also whether they support the death penalty for apostasy. It doesn't include the UK but the figures are terrifying. Something like 60% of Egyptians think execution is the correct sentence for simply choosing not to be Muslim. Dismissing that level of indoctrinated moral blindness is mental. Edited November 16, 2015 by NJS

[NJS 4373]

Agreed, but for me religion is just the conduit, or m.o. If you like. The root cause is just mans inhumanity to his fellow man. Lust for power status and wealth. Don't know if this has been posted..

 

http://gu.com/p/4e8b4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I agree religion is just another form of tribalism but to a large degree the other "classics" like so called race and nationality are slightly on the wane as most people wake up to the fact they don't really define us as apart from other humans.

 

Unfortunately religion holds such a sway on so many people that it's harder to blur in the same way. Sometimes I admire how well the human race has invented ways to fuck ourselves over.

[Kitman 2204]

 

I don't know how anyone starts to make sense of it. It must feel surreal and unreal in a way. I think of any Friday night I've spent in Newcastle - on a night where 2 suicide bombers detonate outside a packed SJP whilst more open fire at a nearby restaurant and more storm into a packed City Hall and randomly massacre a huge amount of innocents enjoying a gig at the end of the working week. Where do you even start to comprehend this? Our thoughts are with you all - I don't know what else to say.

Well said. It's utterly barbaric and the people who carried it out are monsters, whatever cause they're supposed to represent.

[PaddockLad 17112]

We know already that Jeremy Corbyn will not help. There was a time when Labour could be relied upon to fight totalitarian regimes such as the Islamic caliphate ruled by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the self-declared Caliph Ibrahim. I wonder if Corbyn has read Sami Moubayed’s superb book, Under the Black Flag, which describes precisely what life is like in the hell on Earth created by the zealots of Raqqa. I wonder, too, if the Labour leader agreed with the article posted by Stop the War but since withdrawn, headlined “Paris reaps whirlwind of western support for extremist violence in Middle East”.

 

As tasteless as the piece was, it captured accurately the Corbynite belief that Islamist terrorism is the consequence of western foreign policy. And there is no doubt that the errors of Iraq, Guantánamo and extraordinary rendition have oxygenated the millennial death cult that inspired seven militants (at least) to kill as many Parisian civilians as they could. But it is wilfully unhistorical to claim that their ideology is to be understood solely as the hideous spawn of decisions taken in the White House and Pentagon.

 

What drove them was the same impulse that drove their forebears to burn The Satanic Verses a quarter century ago. It detects grievance everywhere, throughout history: from the Crusades to the loss of the caliphate in 1924, to the foundation of Israel in 1948, to the emancipation of women and gay people in the west. It bans music and comedy. It is violently theocratic. You could withdraw all western forces from the Middle East and north Africa, abolish the state of Israel, end America’s entanglement with Saudi Arabia – and the Islamists would describe this as no more than a good start.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-britain-david-cameron-air-strikes-armchair-generals

[ewerk 30297]

Is that not the same thing? Can you give an example of what you mean?

 

Very different, you can agree with the aims without condoning the methods used to achieve those aims.

 

The simplest example I can think of is in my own country. Support for a united Ireland may sit at 25% but support for terrorist groups using violence to achieve that aim may be less than 1%.

 

So I'm surprised that the figure of 27% is so low because as a Muslim you surely have to be outraged that CH mocked Muhammad as it goes against what you're told to believe. You'll note from the link HF provided that the question was never put to British Muslims, 'Do you support the attack on CH?', the results of that question would have been interesting.

[aimaad22 4129]

Agreed, but for me religion is just the conduit, or m.o. If you like. The root cause is just mans inhumanity to his fellow man. Lust for power status and wealth. Don't know if this has been posted..

 

http://gu.com/p/4e8b4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Agree with this.

 

Prime example is that of the 'satanic verses' that get mentioned so often without any real knowledge of the history or background behind them. And even if these people, the likes of ISIS, are so blindly devout in their faith that they're bent on literally interpreting every verse without context or knowledge then its a bit strange that such madly sincere followers of the holy book miss out so many of its other parts, for instance:

 

"And the (special) servants of Allah, most gracious, are those who walk on the Earth in humility and when the ignorant address them, they say 'peace'. (Al Furqan 25:63)

 

"Repel evil with what is better; then will he, between whom and thee was hatred, become as if he were thy friend and intimate" (Haa-Meem Al Sajda 32:34)

 

"But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds); for Allah loveth those who are not kind". (Al Maida 5:13)

 

"Repel evil with that which is best; We are well acquainted with the things that they say." (Al Mominoon 23:96)

 

"Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert evil with good." (Al Qasas, 28:54)

 

"And when they (the special servants of Allah) hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say, 'to us our deeds, and to you, yours; peace be to you; we seek not the ignorant." (Al Qasas 28:55)

 

"If a person kills unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." (Al Maida, 5:32)

 

Point is, even if these people think they're fighting 'evil' with these non-discrete acts of killing for the sake of Islam, there's more than enough for anyone with an ounce of common sense to see that its completely out of line. You'd have to be insanely stupid to think this sort of thing would be acceptable. Almost as insane as carrying your passport around on the eve of the attack

[ChezGiven 0]

All great points PL. The fact that all 4 terrorist attacks in France this year were planned before the French became involved in air strikes and the reaction of the French government last night, just proves that this is IS's desired effect not cause. We are all Zionist-crusaders living in the capital of obscenity and prostitution. I think some intellectuals are guilty of psycho-analyzing the terrorists and blaming their behaviour to a grief for the deaths of Muslims in the Middle East since 9/11. This is certainly a recruiting tool of IS but what IS wants and what they hope to achieve is driven by religion. We can argue whether that desire has been mainly driven by the West's actions and there is room for that but at heart of IS is a warped view of religion governing their every action.

[Dr Gloom 21823]

We know already that Jeremy Corbyn will not help. There was a time when Labour could be relied upon to fight totalitarian regimes such as the Islamic caliphate ruled by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the self-declared Caliph Ibrahim. I wonder if Corbyn has read Sami Moubayeds superb book, Under the Black Flag, which describes precisely what life is like in the hell on Earth created by the zealots of Raqqa. I wonder, too, if the Labour leader agreed with the article posted by Stop the War but since withdrawn, headlined Paris reaps whirlwind of western support for extremist violence in Middle East.

 

As tasteless as the piece was, it captured accurately the Corbynite belief that Islamist terrorism is the consequence of western foreign policy. And there is no doubt that the errors of Iraq, Guantánamo and extraordinary rendition have oxygenated the millennial death cult that inspired seven militants (at least) to kill as many Parisian civilians as they could. But it is wilfully unhistorical to claim that their ideology is to be understood solely as the hideous spawn of decisions taken in the White House and Pentagon.

 

What drove them was the same impulse that drove their forebears to burn The Satanic Verses a quarter century ago. It detects grievance everywhere, throughout history: from the Crusades to the loss of the caliphate in 1924, to the foundation of Israel in 1948, to the emancipation of women and gay people in the west. It bans music and comedy. It is violently theocratic. You could withdraw all western forces from the Middle East and north Africa, abolish the state of Israel, end Americas entanglement with Saudi Arabia and the Islamists would describe this as no more than a good start.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-britain-david-cameron-air-strikes-armchair-generals

Precisely.

[Dr Gloom 21823]

Another good read on how we can better try to understand Isis and how it works.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis

[Gemmill 44425]

Wife behind me at work hasn't shut up about how we should never have let those "bloody Syrians" into Europe since I got into work.

 

I'm gonna stand up at my desk and start singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing.... In perfect harmonyyyyyyy" any minute now. See if I can get the whole floor going.

[Gemmill 44425]

Not worth it. She's thick as pigshit. This won't be her original thought, she doesn't have them, so she's just repeating what her husband's told her I'm sure.

[Christmas Tree 4702]

Given a lot of these attacks are carried out by home grown terrorists and given America is the biggest bomb dropper over there, it seems strange that they seem to be free / virtually free of similar home grown attacks.

[Alex 34877]

Not worth it. She's thick as pigshit. This won't be her original thought, she doesn't have them, so she's just repeating what her husband's told her I'm sure.

Send her this:

[Park Life 71]

Given a lot of these attacks are carried out by home grown terrorists and given America is the biggest bomb dropper over there, it seems strange that they seem to be free / virtually free of similar home grown attacks.

Careful now.

[Park Life 71]

Not worth it. She's thick as pigshit. This won't be her original thought, she doesn't have them, so she's just repeating what her husband's told her I'm sure.

Start chatting to her casually in your broken Pashtun.

[Renton 21364]

Given a lot of these attacks are carried out by home grown terrorists and given America is the biggest bomb dropper over there, it seems strange that they seem to be free / virtually free of similar home grown attacks.

9/11, Boston, Fort Hood?

 

Given the free access to automatic weapons they have there though I'd be concerned.

[Christmas Tree 4702]

9/11, Boston, Fort Hood?

 

Given the free access to automatic weapons they have there though I'd be concerned.

9/11 were all Saudis. I was talking about the IS inspired stuff that we've seen elsewhere in recent years.

[Park Life 71]

9/11 were all Saudis. I was talking about the IS inspired stuff that we've seen elsewhere in recent years.

Stop it.

[Christmas Tree 4702]

[Park Life 71]

One would have imagined they would have headed straight for Israel. Who knows eh?

[Christmas Tree 4702]

I'm still interested to now here the view on what should happen next given we are where we are. SHOULD btw not what WILL.

 

Options.

 

1. Everyone walks away and leaves IS to continue expanding.

 

2. All the main players get together, see off IS and restore some friendly dictators.

 

3. Hold the Saudis and others who are funding all of this to account.

 

It's pretty clear to see why successive governments struggle with this.

[Park Life 71]

America has the force projection in the region to clear Isis out in a week.