Paris

[RedfernMag 0]

@@toonotl and renton

 

Any chance of a link to those statistics of (up to) 20/25% UK Muslims supporting terrorism?

[Happy Face 29]

It's half a million btw. And inc sanctions it went on for ages and ages and Iraq ran out of basic medicines after 3 months.

 

Remember Madeline Albright saying in 1996 the deaths of half a million children were "worth it"

 

Sometimes the mask slips and the collateral damage is revealed for the inhumanity it is.

[Dr Gloom 21847]

 

I didn't realise you were the arbiter of the borderline between war casualties and genocide.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting violence. I'm simply noting the difference between the horrible and unfortunate casualties of war in the Middle East and indiscriminate violence against Western civilians. I feel I have to keep doing this now.

I find it incredible so many on the left fail to make the distinction.

 

I consider myself very liberal and left wing. Precisely the opposite of the type of ideologue that fuelled the attacks in Paris in other words.

 

I despise the way the UK and the U.S. Have destroyed parts of the Middle East and launched wars on false pretences, but let's not be afraid to call these Jihadi cunts out for why they are. They hate our values, our tolerance, our "heresy". Everything we stand for and they want us all dead. They're indiscriminate in that front.

[Happy Face 29]

@@toonotl and renton

 

Any chance of a link to those statistics of (up to) 20/25% UK Muslims supporting terrorism?

You've phrased that wrong, but here's the report...

 

 

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/

[Dr Gloom 21847]

That's the great thing about opinions, everyone can have one. I remember when I was a teenager on here telling everyone their opinions were wrong. I've grown up a bit since then fortunately

You've started shaving already?

 

Sorry, I haven't grown up much in the same time.

[NJS 4375]

@@toonotl and renton

 

Any chance of a link to those statistics of (up to) 20/25% UK Muslims supporting terrorism?

 

http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/BBC-Today-Programme_British-Muslims-Poll_FINAL-Tables_Feb2015.pdf

 

 

Bastard - beaten to by the stats bot

Edited November 15, 2015 by NJS

[RedfernMag 0]

You've phrased that wrong, but here's the report...

 

 

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/

I was using the phrase already hinted at previously. Thanks for the link.

[Happy Face 29]

 

http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/BBC-Today-Programme_British-Muslims-Poll_FINAL-Tables_Feb2015.pdf

 

 

Bastard - beaten to by the stats bot

I like your raw days better than the filtered radio 4 report.

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

It's half a million btw. And inc sanctions it went on for ages and ages and Iraq ran out of basic medicines after 3 months.

 

If you factor in depleted Uranium shells and bullets the death and handicapped births will go on for decades.

 

What happened in Iraq is a war crime and there is no two ways about it. I see it on the same scale as Vietnam.

 

They bombed Fallujah for 3 full days with all the civilians in it.

 

It was clear after the opening few days that Iraq couldn't defend itself.

 

 

 

Even the BBC says over 400,000.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24547256

 

Lancet 650,000

 

The second household survey, conducted by the Hopkins scientists again, was completed in June 2006 and published four months later in The Lancet. Its findings: 650,000 people (civilians and fighters) died as a result of the war in Iraq. Read

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project

 

Widely recognised as the baseline of civilian deaths. No one really knows how many died in reality

[RedfernMag 0]

@@NJS that was close :-)

[Park Life 71]

Remember Madeline Albright saying in 1996 the deaths of half a million children were "worth it"

 

Sometimes the mask slips and the collateral damage is revealed for the inhumanity it is.

Yup.

[ewerk 30370]

You've phrased that wrong, but here's the report...

 

 

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/

There's a massive difference though in supporting terrorism and supporting the motives behind it.

[Happy Face 29]

It is interesting to read the questions NJS linked to and note the turns of phrase used. Also note that the most interesting question isn't asked outright.

 

"Is killing people justifiable?"

[RedfernMag 0]

There's a massive difference though in supporting terrorism and supporting the motives behind it.

Is that not the same thing? Can you give an example of what you mean?

[Happy Face 29]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandelas MK terrorists

 

Now a global icon. You can agree with his motives while disagreeing with his earlier actions.

[ChezGiven 0]

France only joined air strikes in Syria 6 weeks ago. They opposed invasions of Iraq. All this chat about Iraq and the American actions in the area being the cause misses this point doesn't it? Was the attack planned less than 6 weeks ago? Plainly not.

 

The French right (UMP, Sarkozy) are now calling for the west to align behind Russia and Assad as the most logical choice of the lesser of two evils.

[catmag 336]

Chez, how are things? Not from a political point of view but as someone who lives in the city?

[Dr Gloom 21847]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandelas MK terrorists

 

Now a global icon. You can agree with his motives while disagreeing with his earlier actions.

Totally different scenario though. Black people were oppressed in apartheid South Africa. They were fighting for exactly the same freedoms that Isis and its supporters want to deny anyone that doesn't buy into their ideology.

 

Clearly, targeting innocent civilians wasn't the way to achieve freedom for non whites in S Africa, and it wasn't what secured it in the end.

[Renton 21393]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandelas MK terrorists

 

Now a global icon. You can agree with his motives while disagreeing with his earlier actions.

Jesus Christ HF (no religious pun intended). Quit the devil's advocate argument here and come back on the side of sanity.... Edited November 15, 2015 by Renton

[ChezGiven 0]

Well am sure you've seen the footage from Place de la Republique, definitely still on edge despite the defiant spirit. Went out to one of the big local parks this afternoon with the kids and it was the busiest i've ever seen it. Not sure if that was defiance too or just a lot of people staying local and not moving around the city as they might usually. Everyone is shocked but this is the 4th terrorist attack in France this year.

[Happy Face 29]

Jesus Christ HF (no religious pun intended). Quit the devil's advocate argument here and come back on the side of sanity....

It's the most easily understood example (as requested by redfern) for the difference between agreeing with motive and not method.

 

Not in any way a comparison of the causes.

[catmag 336]

Well am sure you've seen the footage from Place de la Republique, definitely still on edge despite the defiant spirit. Went out to one of the big local parks this afternoon with the kids and it was the busiest i've ever seen it. Not sure if that was defiance too or just a lot of people staying local and not moving around the city as they might usually. Everyone is shocked but this is the 4th terrorist attack in France this year.

 

I don't know how anyone starts to make sense of it. It must feel surreal and unreal in a way. I think of any Friday night I've spent in Newcastle - on a night where 2 suicide bombers detonate outside a packed SJP whilst more open fire at a nearby restaurant and more storm into a packed City Hall and randomly massacre a huge amount of innocents enjoying a gig at the end of the working week. Where do you even start to comprehend this? Our thoughts are with you all - I don't know what else to say.

[Happy Face 29]

Hate to go back to the religion debate, old news, but an interesting read on what mi5 see having looked at hundreds of case studies. You'd think they know better than us...

 

 

Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

 

Well worth reading the whole report which emphasises the inability to point at any one factor that's predominant in those that allow themselves to become radicalised.

[Renton 21393]

Hate to go back to the religion debate, old news, but an interesting read on what mi5 see having looked at hundreds of case studies. You'd think they know better than us...

 

 

Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

 

Well worth reading the whole report which emphasises the inability to point at any one factor that's predominant in those that allow themselves to become radicalised.

You're getting desperate now with your insistence this isn't due to religion. Right oh. I'm off to bed, glad though that some on here still speak honestly. Toontotl has said already what I think, very well I think.

[Happy Face 29]

Night