ewerk 30682 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 We need to build a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The burqa is not required according to the quran. It advises women to dress modestly, that is all. The burqa et all are cultural forms of dress from different Arab tribal traditions. Yup. And this 'dressing modestly' has been interpreted in different ways by different cultures. Many wont even take the hijab, some will wear the burka. Yet some would have you believe all muslim women are forced into a circus like tent at gun point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3905 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 We need to build a wall. We've got one but I still managed to get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21965 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) The burqa is not required according to the quran. It advises women to dress modestly, that is all. The burqa et all are cultural forms of dress from different Arab tribal traditions.It advises women cover up to prevent being molested. That's not modesty, it's rape - see the verse I posted earlier - as if that is an acceptable thing to happen should they fail to cover up. Clearly the verse is open to Interpretation, but the message is pretty clear to me. Edited November 17, 2015 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3905 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 It advises women cover up to prevent being molested. That's not modesty, it's rape - see the verse I posted earlier as if that is an acceptable thing to happen should they fail to cover up. Clearly the verse is open to Interpretation, but the message is pretty clear to me. Can you post the verse again I can't be arsed to look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) This has to be one of the most spurious and cod debates in the history of this forum. Indonesia/Singapore maj Muslim countries nobody covers their face and it isn't required. Iran only headscarves no niqab or burqa Jordan no requirement for any kind of headscarf Malaysia the use of covering in massive decline. Bangladesh very rare and only in rural areas Morocco Hijab not encouraged Syria full face veils are banned Tunisia women are only encouraged to 'dress modestly'... That's about a billion muslims right there. Edited November 17, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21965 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Can you post the verse again I can't be arsed to look? O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested (Koran 33:59) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 This has to be one of the most spurious and cod debates in the history of this forum. Indonesia/Singapore maj Muslim countries nobody covers their face and it isn't required. Iran only headscarves no niqab or burqa Jordan no requirement for any kind of headscarf Malaysia the use of covering in massive decline. Bangladesh very rare and only in rural areas Morocco Hijab not encouraged Syria full face veils are banned Tunisia women are only encouraged to 'dress modestly'... That's about a billion muslims right there. If its not a religious requirement then there should be no issue banning it then. Good, sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10876 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If its not a religious requirement then there should be no issue banning it then. Good, sorted. Disagree with anyone telling anyone what they can and can't wear. You banning it is no different to Saudi Arabia insisting on it. They're both removing freedom and while your position may be an effort to afford more freedom to women, it's still an infringement of personal choice, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Can you post the verse again I can't be arsed to look? Interesting that the guidance comes for men first: Surah 24 : 30: "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." Then: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons......." (24:31) And O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (33:59) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Disagree with anyone telling anyone what they can and can't wear. You banning it is no different to Saudi Arabia insisting on it. They're both removing freedom and while your position may be an effort to afford more freedom to women, it's still an infringement of personal choice, no? Exactly my point. Problem is Gloomy and Renton seem to have decided that it IS a symbol of Islam when its not really, and that most muslims women are forced to wear it when they're not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44996 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Renton just wants more real estate to ogle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3905 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies that they may thus be distinguished and not molested (Koran 33:59) Ok now let's compare that to something written in europe regarding women at around 610 CE....... Ok I have just had a look and no one in Britain bothered with writing laws at this time. Also the translation you have chosen is different from all of these translations from different people https://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/33-59.html some of which have annoyed where you have molested. The lessons here are Don't compare 620CE Arabia with modern europe. If you are citing a book written in a different language be absolutely certain of the translation I am a pedantic twat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21965 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Exactly my point. Problem is Gloomy and Renton seem to have decided that it IS a symbol of Islam when its not really, and that most muslims women are forced to wear it when they're not really. i think a lot of women feel obliged to wear it. why would anyone choose to cover their faces unless there was a weight of cultural pressure on them to so, derived from a nonsensical religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35121 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Ok now let's compare that to something written in europe regarding women at around 610 CE....... Ok I have just had a look and no one in Britain bothered with writing laws at this time. Also the translation you have chosen is different from all of these translations from different people https://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/33-59.html some of which have annoyed where you have molested. The lessons here are Don't compare 620CE Arabia with modern europe. If you are citing a book written in a different language be absolutely certain of the translation I am a pedantic twat. Living your life by 7th century Arabian values is fucking ridiculous though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21965 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Exactly my point. Problem is Gloomy and Renton seem to have decided that it IS a symbol of Islam when its not really, and that most muslims women are forced to wear it when they're not really. i know you respect a muslim woman's decision to choose whether to wear it or not. but what do you think of what the burqa represents? is it a part of your culture, or religion, that you're proud of? do you agree with what it represents? is the right to choose more important than what the thing that is being chosen symbolises? and where do you stand on what your religion says about homosexuality? if it's a matter of choice, shouldn't a man have the right to sodomise another man if it's consensual? Edited November 17, 2015 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3905 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Living your life by 7th century Arabian values is fucking ridiculous though As is living your life by a book written aproximately 4000 before that or one 600 years(ish) before it. It seems to me that muslims are getting picked on because they have a lot of nutters on the books who claim to be fully affiliated but have in actuality been blackballed by the comittee. It also boils my piss that muslims killing people is terrorism whereas white power nutters killing people is just a normal crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3905 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 i know you respect a muslim woman's decision to choose whether to wear it or not. but what do you think of what the burqa represents? is it a part of your culture, or religion, that you're proud of? do you agree with what it represents? is the right to choose more important than what the thing that is being chosen symbolises? and where do you stand on what your religion says about homosexuality? if it's a matter of choice, shouldn't a man have the right to sodomise another man if it's consensual? Do you know where Aimaad is from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21965 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Do you know where Aimaad is from? pakistan, i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Exactly my point. Problem is Gloomy and Renton seem to have decided that it IS a symbol of Islam when its not really, and that most muslims women are forced to wear it when they're not really. Well no, that's not my point at all. I have said that whether they are coerced or its voluntary, covering the face is not an action that can be justified in western secular society. It prevents effective communication, it is a security risk, and it is a clear barrier to integration. Many people think it creates an atmosphere of unease, which I agree with. The coercion/misogyny angle is a valid secondary point imo. Remember, we're not talking about cultural norms in Islamic societies here, we're talking about secularised society. This doesn't mean we have freedom to do whatever we want, far from it. We need to have fraternity, shared responsibilities. This to me goes to the heart of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10876 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 As is living your life by a book written aproximately 4000 before that or one 600 years(ish) before it. It seems to me that muslims are getting picked on because they have a lot of nutters on the books who claim to be fully affiliated but have in actuality been blackballed by the comittee. It also boils my piss that muslims killing people is terrorism whereas white power nutters killing people is just a normal crime. Don't think that's true. They're categorised as hate crime aren't they? That Brevik (sp?) was denounced as a domestic terrorist, wasn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21965 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 As is living your life by a book written aproximately 4000 before that or one 600 years(ish) before it. It seems to me that muslims are getting picked on because they have a lot of nutters on the books who claim to be fully affiliated but have in actuality been blackballed by the comittee. It also boils my piss that muslims killing people is terrorism whereas white power nutters killing people is just a normal crime. i'd call that terrorism as well, equally grotesque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Renton just wants more real estate to ogle. And there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3905 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 pakistan, i think. Do they have the burqa in pakistan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35121 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 As is living your life by a book written aproximately 4000 before that or one 600 years(ish) before it. Totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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