Paris

[Christmas Tree 4547]

Surely one thing that should happen is a global effort to address the problem of disenfranchised and corruptible young men, to include and educate them so that the promises of ISIS and their ilk isn't appealing? Stop trying to simply prune the weeds and instead salt the earth so they can't grow?

 

'How?' is another question entirely and one I'm not sure has a feasible answer.

This is apparently a non starter as our approach is basically keep away from the nasty people (very negative) where as IS propaganda is a very exciting, we understand your everyday grumbles, come and be part of something great, worthy etc etc.

[Happy Face 29]

 

I think they are very clear about what they want and about how they want to bring it about.

 

Muslims are not evil, no. Warped ideology that invokes death is though and that is incontestable. IS is a religious movement, ideology drives everything they do.

 

I concur.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3748]

Pretty naive to think military withdrawal will satisfy these nutters and we'll all live in peace imo.

 

I didn't say it would, it's just the necessary starting point before anything else remotely peaceful can be achieved.

[Park Life 71]

You're not sure they know what they want but you are sure you know exactly what they want?

 

Go on then, am asking you to articulate what you think IS is trying to achieve. Revenge was my suggestion based on the insistence this is about geo-politics and revenge for atrocities in the middle east carried out by the West. Do you agree?

I said they aren't sure what they want hence me referencing infighting between various clerics that led to them breaking away from AlQ.

 

I said in the Syria thread a good two weeks ago the war was coming to Europe and I'm irritated I was right about that. By definition Isis want to engage 'the army of Rome'. Yes they are fantasists but when nutcases are backed with money and weapons fantasy becomes reality.

 

Isis started in Iraq after the power vacuum we created by making it a failed state and all the overkill we just had to bring to bear. The overkill was unnecessary and it sent a message to the whole of Islam.

 

Iraq and then Libya are the key to Isis cause they picked up not only a lot of weapons the Americans left behind in Iraq (which was strange) but also the stuff Gadaffi had.

 

The initial ground command structure was built around the Sunni ex-Bathists who had nothing to do and no money to feed their families after we dismantled the Iraqi army, hence their early victories almost like a professional army.

 

When they had a few beat backs in Iraq they high tailed it into Syria firstly to the oil fields and they have been selling oil to various bad actors in the region.

 

The Gulf states and in particular Saudi saw a chance to appropriate this scenario to take down Assad so suddenly they had even more money and now hi tech stuff which comes in through Libya and Turkey. Isis dogma is a throwback to early Islam hence it dovetailed nicely with the Wahabbi sect of Islam which is barbaric and practiced by Saudi. Even AlQ was surprised by the routine savagery of Isis.

 

In amongst all this Qatar wants a gas pipeline to go through Syria and Assad said no primarily cause it will harm Russia and Gazprom in Europe. America wants this pipeline too as do Turkey who are looking to make money from it and are want to work with Qatar on it.

 

So for the longest of times NATO left Isis alone and didn't mind that many of its airdrops (for moderates but who the fuck they are nobody knows) ended up in their hands. Turkey gave safe passage to Jihadi's from all over the world and probably has been buying oil from Isis. The Turks meanwhile have eyes on Kurdish areas and were allowed to bomb Kurds because they are a NATO player and we need them in the area. Kurds it must be said were having huge successed against Isis because they have a legitimate cause and they are excellent ground fighters. No matter NATO sat back untill very recently and let it happen...

 

What do Isis want? Their own piece of real estate to call their own (frankly a pipe dream) although it might have been facilitated if at the same time they took out Assad. Bearing in mind the Caliphate is hype and nonsense to sell an already failing project (AlQ and some of their clerics called the Isis clertics real estate agents).

 

What went wrong for Isis? Well the gumbies that they are they started fighting the other sects and took an immediate dislike to Al Nusra (AlQ in Syria). Infact they started leaving Assad alone and attacking other Jihadis...So Assad and Russia left Isis alone (as America had done for the longest of time - at least 2 years) and started getting on with with cleaning out the 6 other main factions.

 

Gulf States upped the ante and let the nutters out of their prisons and their purses to get more fighters into Syria, the same thing Saddam did at the end of the war because these prison guys are in there for a reason...In an area where nutters rule the ones in prison are the prime nutters. The CIA got to work in Jordan training up and arming various other Jihadis (you know the ones they call moderates who do head chopping as well). Guys beguiled by all the fancy Isis marketing started arriving from Pakistan, Chechneya (the Russians took notice), Bosnia, Azerbijan). Blackwater got more work, the arms industry drank more champage and our leaders carried on lying every chance they had.

 

Isis are losing in Syria. The Sunni/Shia paradigm (the final battle with Iran) looks like its not going to work this time.

 

The initial motivation was revenge (the core Baathists that looked around at their erased country) which morphed as the myth grew into the Caliphate but it all stems back to us turning Iraq and Libya into failed states.

 

Like Cambodia a lot of these guys have come to the end of their sanity (you know little shit like whole countries getting wiped out) and like Cambodia Isis are year zero.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Park Life

[ChezGiven 0]

Real estate? That's your answer?

[Park Life 71]

Real estate? That's your answer?

 

It's the marketing it's why people travel there. It's why people join them instead of AlQ. It enhances the idea of a pure Islamic land with Sharia law. A permanence. It's a pipe dream. People have been leaving Isis in droves. In fact they have been making videos about people not leaving... They've been mining around their territory to stop people leaving.

 

The truth is its a rag tag army of clowns with a core of veteran and professional soldiers and would be defeated by any western power in short order. It's been tolerated in so far as it might have taken Assad down...But as I said they don't fight Assad much.

 

I'm sure in the Pentagon they are tearing their hair out.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Park Life

[ewerk 29830]

 

 

Heaven help Corbyn for trying at least to broaden the debate. They are practically calling him a Jihadi already. That's the state of play.

 

Not practically, actually.

 

[Kid Dynamite 6906]

[Alex 34311]

Depressingly, I think that media tactic will work like a dream.

[RedfernMag 0]

 

Very different, you can agree with the aims without condoning the methods used to achieve those aims.

 

The simplest example I can think of is in my own country. Support for a united Ireland may sit at 25% but support for terrorist groups using violence to achieve that aim may be less than 1%.

 

 

Yeah I understand that, I think I was a bit confused by the line supporting the motives behind it, as opposed to being sympathetic to, or having an understanding of, the motives behind it.

 

I have a feeling I was just being picky.

[ewerk 29830]

At the time I first saw the poll I did think that the wording was a bit too ambiguous for my liking and could lead to the result being portrayed in a misleading way.

[Dr Gloom 21597]

Good watch

 

http://www.news.com.au/video/id-B3eDZ2eDpRNd6risb93Ypc6960xm_5I1/What-ISIL-wants

[Dr Gloom 21597]

Hollande cranking up the rhetoric a few notches talking about how France is at war with Isis and will destroy them.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Dr Gloom

[Ausman 0]

At last a journalist talking some sense.

 

 

 

[RedfernMag 0]

At last a journalist talking some sense.

 

sense? a couple of worthwhile points served up in a big shit sandwich, not a surprise considering it's on RT.

[Gemmill 43274]

At last a journalist talking some sense.

 

 

 

 

He'll have committed suicide by Christmas by shooting himself in the head.... Twice.

[Happy Face 29]

TV satirist John Oliver responds to Paris attacks with 'a moment of premium cable profanity'

 

http://flip.it/J51VP

[The Fish 10543]

TV satirist John Oliver responds to Paris attacks with 'a moment of premium cable profanity'

 

http://flip.it/J51VP

 

The consistently excellent John Oliver.

[Happy Face 29]

But ISIS reach is bounded; there are no more areas in which it can extend by claiming to be a defender of Sunni Arab populations. To the north, there are Kurds; to the east, Iraqi Shiites; to the west, Alawites, now protected by the Russians. And all are resisting it. To the south, neither the Lebanese, who worry about the influx of Syrian refugees, nor the Jordanians, who are still reeling from the horrid execution of one of their pilots, nor the Palestinians have succumbed to any fascination for ISIS. Stalled in the Middle East, ISIS is rushing headlong into globalized terrorism.

 

The attack against Hezbollah in Beirut, the attack against the Russians in Sharm el Sheikh and the attacks in Paris had the same goal: terror. But just as the execution of the Jordanian pilot sparked patriotism among even the heterogeneous population of Jordan, the attacks in Paris will turn the battle against ISIS into a national cause. ISIS will hit the same wall as Al Qaeda: Globalized terrorism is no more effective, strategically, than conducting aerial bombings without forces on the ground. Much like Al Qaeda, ISIS has no support among the Muslim people living in Europe. It recruits only at the margins.

 

The question now is how to translate into action the outrage sparked by Fridays attacks in Paris. A massive ground operation by Western forces, like the one conducted in Afghanistan in 2001, seems out of the question, if only because an international intervention would get mired in endless local conflicts. A coordinated offensive by local powers seems unlikely, given the differences among their goals and ulterior motives: It would require striking a political agreement among regional actors, starting with Saudi Arabia and Iran.

 

So the road ahead is long, unless ISIS suddenly collapses under the vanity of its own expansionist aspirations or tensions between its foreign recruits and local Arab populations. In any event, ISIS is its own worst enemy.

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/opinion/the-attacks-in-paris-reveal-the-strategic-limits-of-isis.html?_r=0&referer=

[aimaad22 4019]

We need to hear more condemnation from moderate Muslims

 

For what? To make you feel warm and fluffy? Most of the moderate muslims in Europe are probably too busy dealing with shut down of mosques, banning of veils and what not. Or worrying about being stabbed to death on the way to work tomorrow.

 

Get off Fox News and you'd see worldwide condemnation anyway, including from muslim nations. And if some people are a bit apprehensive because of the number of muslims killed in western led warfare in years gone by you ought to forgive them since you're following the same line of thought i.e. "they must all be in on it"

 

While on the issue of condemnation how many times have you or anyone else apologized for the 200 years of savagery we were subjected to here? Its been 70 years nearly and I cant remember one proper apology!! Radicalized bastards.

[Happy Face 29]

I listened to five live for an hour last night and it was almost exclusively Muslims they were interviewing who were condemning it unanimously.

[Dr Gloom 21597]

 

For what? To make you feel warm and fluffy? Most of the moderate muslims in Europe are probably too busy dealing with shut down of mosques, banning of veils and what not. Or worrying about being stabbed to death on the way to work tomorrow.

 

Get off Fox News and you'd see worldwide condemnation anyway, including from muslim nations. And if some people are a bit apprehensive because of the number of muslims killed in western led warfare in years gone by you ought to forgive them since you're following the same line of thought i.e. "they must all be in on it"

 

While on the issue of condemnation how many times have you or anyone else apologized for the 200 years of savagery we were subjected to here? Its been 70 years nearly and I cant remember one proper apology!! Radicalized bastards.

I don't watch Fox News, you prat.

[The Fish 10543]

But ISIS reach is bounded; there are no more areas in which it can extend by claiming to be a defender of Sunni Arab populations. To the north, there are Kurds; to the east, Iraqi Shiites; to the west, Alawites, now protected by the Russians. And all are resisting it. To the south, neither the Lebanese, who worry about the influx of Syrian refugees, nor the Jordanians, who are still reeling from the horrid execution of one of their pilots, nor the Palestinians have succumbed to any fascination for ISIS. Stalled in the Middle East, ISIS is rushing headlong into globalized terrorism.

 

The attack against Hezbollah in Beirut, the attack against the Russians in Sharm el Sheikh and the attacks in Paris had the same goal: terror. But just as the execution of the Jordanian pilot sparked patriotism among even the heterogeneous population of Jordan, the attacks in Paris will turn the battle against ISIS into a national cause. ISIS will hit the same wall as Al Qaeda: Globalized terrorism is no more effective, strategically, than conducting aerial bombings without forces on the ground. Much like Al Qaeda, ISIS has no support among the Muslim people living in Europe. It recruits only at the margins.

 

The question now is how to translate into action the outrage sparked by Fridays attacks in Paris. A massive ground operation by Western forces, like the one conducted in Afghanistan in 2001, seems out of the question, if only because an international intervention would get mired in endless local conflicts. A coordinated offensive by local powers seems unlikely, given the differences among their goals and ulterior motives: It would require striking a political agreement among regional actors, starting with Saudi Arabia and Iran.

 

So the road ahead is long, unless ISIS suddenly collapses under the vanity of its own expansionist aspirations or tensions between its foreign recruits and local Arab populations. In any event, ISIS is its own worst enemy.

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/opinion/the-attacks-in-paris-reveal-the-strategic-limits-of-isis.html?_r=0&referer=

Won't ISIS be replaced by some other iteration, as they seem* to have replaced Al Qaeda ?

 

 

 

*to my admittedly ill-informed eyes.

[Dr Gloom 21597]

My heart bleeds for the Muslim community coping with France banning the veil. How much of a chore it must be for them to struggle with the prospect of their women's hair being seen in public.

[ohhh_yeah 2900]

http://m.imgur.com/a/zYXTc

 

"Because life goes on. Because they cannot win. Because it is awful and because no one can get back to it's normal life. Because too many friends (know or unknown) died friday evening. Because it's only Rock & Roll...

I'll post my pictures from the show.

Every webzine will be able to ask me for the full series for free and post them on their website. Every fan will be able te request HD files for his own prints.

Because I was there to party and take pictures.

Peace, Love & Death Metal"