Paris

[Park Life 71]

I'm angry cause I'm having to self-censor like a motherfucker.

[aimaad22 4222]

It's an absolute tragedy what has happened to countries in your neck of the woods. But haven't a lot of the deaths been caused by sectarian conflicts? I can't get my head around anyone saying religion isn't the root cause of this.

 

No, not really. Aye thats an issue as well but the vast majority of fatalities have come from attacks carried out by Taliban/Al Qaeda/other groups. Sunni shia conflict flares up every now and again, but its not a consistent issue in most places. In Pakistan anyway. Its more prominent in Iran/Iraq. Do you know there was a total of one suicide attack in Pakistani history prior to 9/11? Despite having unfriendly neighbors on either side.

 

 

 

religion is 100% the root cause. well, a perverted take on a particularly fucked up religion - for what it's worth i think all religion is fucked up, islam just more than the rest and more vulnerable to manipulation.

 

western meddling has exacerbated the problem, but it absolutely did not create it.

 

all the inward looking apologists can do one for me, when it comes to shit like this. there is simply no defence for opening fire on innocent civilians.

 

I think a lot of people take this view because its simple, and keeps those skeletons neatly tucked away in their closets.

 

The whole apologist thing has been done to death as well by now, there are no kids here ffs.

 

The Iraq war was meddling now was it? A fabricated war, two superpowers bombing the shite out of a defenseless country. Estimates ranging anywhere from 500K to a mllion dead and tens of thousands more from the fall out. But hey thats not terrorism because people in nice shiny uniforms did it.

 

Im not even saying that attacks like the ones last night have a link with Iraq/Syria etc. They usually do but its not the point. For me its quite simply really. We cant expect to have heartless murdering villains running the show everywhere with no accountability and then not have shit like this happening. No justice, no peace. Blame religion or ethnicity or whatever else all you like.

[Park Life 71]

You're in trouble now.

 

Will someone think of THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!!!

[Dr Gloom 22143]

 

No, not really. Aye thats an issue as well but the vast majority of fatalities have come from attacks carried out by Taliban/Al Qaeda/other groups. Sunni shia conflict flares up every now and again, but its not a consistent issue in most places. In Pakistan anyway. Its more prominent in Iran/Iraq. Do you know there was a total of one suicide attack in Pakistani history prior to 9/11? Despite having unfriendly neighbors on either side.

 

 

 

I think a lot of people take this view because its simple, and keeps those skeletons neatly tucked away in their closets.

 

The whole apologist thing has been done to death as well by now, there are no kids here ffs.

 

The Iraq war was meddling now was it? A fabricated war, two superpowers bombing the shite out of a defenseless country. Estimates ranging anywhere from 500K to a mllion dead and tens of thousands more from the fall out. But hey thats not terrorism because people in nice shiny uniforms did it.

 

Im not even saying that attacks like the ones last night have a link with Iraq/Syria etc. They usually do but its not the point. For me its quite simply really. We cant expect to have heartless murdering villains running the show everywhere with no accountability and then not have shit like this happening. No justice, no peace. Blame religion or ethnicity or whatever else all you like.

 

the iraq war was fucked too. i'm in no way trying to defend it, or the actions of the wankers that took us there on a massive lie. islamist terrorists flew planes into the WTC before that war though, remember?

 

i'll say it again. western actions have exacerbated the problem but religion is entirely to blame for ti existing in the first place. i think any religious person wants to have their head checked, but the fundamentalist islamists are the absolute worst of the worst. they've turned what is meant to be a religion of peace into a tool to brainwash and indoctrinate vulnerable people into thinking it's a good idea to blow themselves up or commit mass murder of innocent people. indefensible.

[aimaad22 4222]

 

i've already read a bunch of posts on here, and across social networks, where the first reaction has been to blame last night;s atrocities on UK/US foreign policy. Exactly the same as after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Galling

 

Agree with that though, this summed it up:

 

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

Fact of the matter is that the people who commit such acts are cowardly bastards not fit to be called animals. They could have been subject to the biggest injustice there ever was and there'd still be no excuse for such attacks. If such acts could fix everything they claim to be avenging, it still would not justify it. Doesnt work that way. As a believer in the afterlife I really hope I'll get to glimpse a few of them rotting in the deepest darkest corners of hell.

Edited November 14, 2015 by aimaad22

[Dr Gloom 22143]

i suppose those on all sides should just ingest these wise words

 

[aimaad22 4222]

 

the iraq war was fucked too. i'm in no way trying to defend it, or the actions of the wankers that took us there on a massive lie. islamist terrorists flew planes into the WTC before that war though, remember?

 

i'll say it again. western actions have exacerbated the problem but religion is entirely to blame for ti existing in the first place. i think any religious person wants to have their head checked, but the fundamentalist islamists are the absolute worst of the worst. they've turned what is meant to be a religion of peace into a tool to brainwash and indoctrinate vulnerable people into thinking it's a good idea to blow themselves up or commit mass murder of innocent people. indefensible.

 

Yeah I know you're not defending it, which is why I said there may not be direct links and doesnt really matter even if there were. My reasoning here is general,

the amount of shite happening daily no one gives a second thought to. We just get a rude awakening when it happens somewhere near us.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

I'm angry cause I'm having to self-censor like a motherfucker.

 

spit it out

[NJS 4411]

 

No, not really. Aye thats an issue as well but the vast majority of fatalities have come from attacks carried out by Taliban/Al Qaeda/other groups. Sunni shia conflict flares up every now and again, but its not a consistent issue in most places. In Pakistan anyway. Its more prominent in Iran/Iraq. Do you know there was a total of one suicide attack in Pakistani history prior to 9/11? Despite having unfriendly neighbors on either side.

 

 

 

I think a lot of people take this view because its simple, and keeps those skeletons neatly tucked away in their closets.

 

The whole apologist thing has been done to death as well by now, there are no kids here ffs.

 

The Iraq war was meddling now was it? A fabricated war, two superpowers bombing the shite out of a defenseless country. Estimates ranging anywhere from 500K to a mllion dead and tens of thousands more from the fall out. But hey thats not terrorism because people in nice shiny uniforms did it.

 

Im not even saying that attacks like the ones last night have a link with Iraq/Syria etc. They usually do but its not the point. For me its quite simply really. We cant expect to have heartless murdering villains running the show everywhere with no accountability and then not have shit like this happening. No justice, no peace. Blame religion or ethnicity or whatever else all you like.

The vast majority of those killed in Iraq were as a result of Muslim vs Muslim conflict. I despise Blair and the neoconservatives' idiot lackey (Bush) but saying they killed a million is bollocks. They kicked over a basket of snakes that Saddam had kept the lid on which was wrong but it needed religious tribalism to set the place on fire.

 

All of the countries which are majority Islam or theocracies are fucked up whether they've been fucked over by the west or not (see Indonesia or Somalia as examples of the latter). Ignoring this commonality is blindness.

[Park Life 71]

 

spit it out

[Park Life 71]

Who dismantled the Iraqi army? And once dismantled what did they do?

 

Think you'll find many Baathists within the current Isis command chain being proper Sunni's as they are.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Park Life

[Dr Gloom 22143]

reports coming in that they spoke perfect french, so another wave of home grown jihadis

[aimaad22 4222]

The vast majority of those killed in Iraq were as a result of Muslim vs Muslim conflict. I despise Blair and the neoconservatives' idiot lackey (Bush) but saying they killed a million is bollocks. They kicked over a basket of snakes that Saddam had kept the lid on which was wrong but it needed religious tribalism to set the place on fire.

 

All of the countries which are majority Islam or theocracies are fucked up whether they've been fucked over by the west or not (see Indonesia or Somalia as examples of the latter). Ignoring this commonality is blindness.

 

So its not just bombing non muslims to hell then right? People will fight people man, regardless of race or religion. Its about power. Its what history has shown. And Iraq was an example, if you look at the conflicts in which the US for instance has been involved post WWII I dont think there'd be any denying that they've got the blood of millions on their hands.

 

There have been powerful Islamic empires in the past. Their rise or fall probably did not have much to do with the fact that they were Islamic. Same goes for today. And by the way how long did it take Europe to get its act together? You nearly wiped each other out before realizing it was all a bit silly ffs. Most Islam majority countries are young having recently achieved independence. I dont think that justifies everything wrong with them, but history has shown rarely do people get their act together without learning the hard way. Which brings me back to my original point.

Edited November 14, 2015 by aimaad22

[aimaad22 4222]

reports coming in that they spoke perfect french, so another wave of home grown jihadis

 

Thats even more sickening, how can anyone do that to the place they've grown up in?

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

 

i've already read a bunch of posts on here, and across social networks, where the first reaction has been to blame last night;s atrocities on UK/US foreign policy. Exactly the same as after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Galling

That's nothing like defending it though is it?

 

The murderers are to blame, I don't think anyone's disagreed with that. My point last night was more in response to the immediate shit on social media about 'Muslims' being at fault and it's time to deport them all. There's no excuse to kill someone. What we have is 2 sides of a divide arguing that each other is in the wrong though. That's never going to change. Blowing up innocent civilians is wrong, whether it's done in Paris or Syria. Murdochs papers will try to convince you that our bombs are for good reasons. Isis will argue the same

Edited November 14, 2015 by StraightEdgeWizard

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Another thing I will add, the UK has just this year held the biggest arms fair in the world. How can this happen when they know for a fact that a lot of these arms will land in extremists hands? This is the height of capitalism and goes to show just how much the world leaders value the safety of "Their" people.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

That's nothing like defending it though is it?

 

The murderers are to blame, I don't think anyone's disagreed with that

 

blaming western foreign policy for the Paris attacks isn't defending the terrorists?

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

[Dr Gloom 22143]

i don't know, my first thought when a story like this breaks isn't to contemplate how western foreign policy has led someone to open fire on a group of random, innocent civilians. it's to think, what a bunch of brainwashed and psychopathic savages.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21983]

TGV derailed in France near Strasbourg, 5 dead. Apparently nothing to do with terrorism though, was due to excessive speed. Think this is the first fatality involving a TGV train in the 40 odd year history of the programme. Bad times for France.

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

 

 

No, it doesn't have to be one or the other ffs. They can both be to blame. Watch the video above. Sums up the ridiculousness of the situation perfectly

[Tooj 17]

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/paris-attacks-middle-easts-wars-arrive-europe/25934

 

We have arrived at a crossroads. Few can have believed that the bloody killings of Charlie Hebdo’s staff would be the end of it. Today many may hope, but virtually no one will believe, that the ghastly attacks on the concert hall and restaurants in Paris will either be the end of it or, terrifyingly, the worst of it.

Since 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria, and with so many other conflicts in between, instability has spread outwards and progressed ever closer towards us in Europe, while engulfing much of the Middle East and Islamic world in a fire which seems unquenchable.

In Europe there seemed to be a pause in the threat for a while after the attacks in Madrid and London, but Syria’s descent into unimaginable carnage and the accompanying rise of Isis and their deliberate strategy to terrorise through deed and propaganda are a game-changer. The attacks in France this year have now brought this war to Europe. We feel under attack from without and within. People here in France have referred to last night’s attack both as a civil war as well as war with the self-styled Islamic State.

Where does this end? How does it stop? What is fuelling this? Certainly the fight between Sunni and Shia fought between Iran and Iraq in the eighties casts a long shadow. It’s been continued by proxy ever since, funded and encouraged by Iran and Saudi Arabia, and is seen right now in Syria, Yemen and Lebanon. Iran supports and arms and funds its proxy armies, and Saudi Arabia matches it in each country, but there is a fundamental difference. Isis are now a threat on a different level, either by deliberate plan or inspiration.

The causes of this spread of terrorism are complex, but one aspect we have to tackle head on — its ideological roots in Wahhabi Islam, the official religion of Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud rules at the mercy of the clerics, some of whom see jihadism as a legitimate method of advancing their religion. The state in Saudi Arabia may not directly fund Isis, but the fundamentals of the Saudi state and society mean many of its people do.

The tenets of Islam have become distorted for too many believers. When I was a child I was taught about the Prophet, and about Mecca. My lessons contained no sense of threat. There was even a whiff of romance about it. But across North and West Africa, leaking into Europe; across the Middle East leaking into Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and now frighteningly newly, into Bangladesh, the intractable Wahhabi fundamentalist belief system is spreading fast. But “leaking” is a generous word. Radical Wahhabi Islam has not so much “leaked” as it has been exported, financed, and pushed into and beyond these countries.

It is not a movement that represented the majority of Muslim believers, but its spread and growth mean it can now appear as the strongest force within Islam – a force that is deeply attractive to alienated young people across the Muslim world and Northern Hemisphere. That sense springs both from the economic and social alienation many of them experience, and from a deep-seated resentment against the way Islam’s holy places and the heartland of Wahhabism are managed. This explains, in part, why so many young Saudis have left and joined the so-called Islamic State. Indeed it explains why Wahhabi-believing jihadists joining Isis are revolted by the shopping malls and glitzy hotels that have come to dominate the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, located in Saudi Arabia, as they are by the Assad brutality backed up by Shia Iran and infidel Russia.

We in the West can do something to try to reach out to the economically and socially alienated Muslim. But tackling those alienated by the management of their faith in a far-away land upon which we are so dependant for both exports and imports of oil, is a far, far, greater challenge. We need to tackle the unending rivalry between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, which splits the region and fuels the violence. The war in Syria has been sustained and worsened by Iran’s backing for a leader who started brutalising and massacring his own people the moment they demonstrated against him, and which has most recently been characterised by the routine barrel bombing of civilian areas. We may not blame Iran for the terror on our streets but many Syrians driven towards Isis blame them for the bombs on theirs.

We don’t yet know the balance between internal French-based Islamic radicals and external Isis-centred forces, in the planning and execution of these latest atrocities in Paris. But we do know that Saudi Arabia has a problem, and it looks like the rest of us have little chance of being able to influence its resolution. The Kingdom is under threat from the very ideology upon which its twentieth century founders centered their entire philosophy and belief system.

The more the Royal family bows to Western demands for women’s rights — car driving, voting, and the rest – the worse the confrontation with the Wahhabi zealots becomes. Indeed a recently retired British General, well versed in Saudi relations, told me only last week that if the House of Saud were to fall, the consequences for the world could be devastating. Yet there is a terrifying fusion between the Western resentment of the Saudi Royal Family’s failure to modernise, and the Islamic State’s conviction that the country’s rules have already joined the ranks of blasphemers.

For too many young Wahhabi zealots across the Northern hemisphere, Isis had become the guardian of the “true way.” Yet Saudi money continues to fund radical Wahabi preachers to establish Wahhabi radical Madrassas (faith schools) right across western Europe, North Africa and seamlessly through the Arabian peninsula into Afghanistan and the Indian sub-continent. What role any of this “export” played upon the distorted minds of those who loathed themselves enough to kill so many souls and then destroy themselves we don’t yet know.

But we are now confronted by one of the gravest threats to our world and our way of life, since rise of the Nazism. We’d better start talking about it openly not only amongst ourselves, but with everyone with whom we relate who plays a role in its sustenance, and that of course includes the Saudis. They are increasingly themselves afraid of Isis, perhaps even more frightened of them that we are. Air strikes will not resolve what many Muslim scholars regard as a deep and insidious distortion of religious belief.

Indeed they may make it worse. Isis is winning converts with every passing day of war; Assad’s brutality has created fertile territory. We may even have to start looking for other ways to engage with the self-styled Islamic State itself. Somehow the self-loathing, the hatred, and fear of others together with a fundamentalist commitment to a world that predates mechanisation, let alone digitalisation has to be combated. Governments in the northern hemisphere may have to be prepared to move aggressively to staunch the funding and manning of this terrifying movement. Pray God it is already not too late.

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

i don't know, my first thought when a story like this breaks isn't to contemplate how western foreign policy has led someone to open fire on a group of random, innocent civilians. it's to think, what a bunch of brainwashed and psychopathic savages.

How many random innocent civilians have died in Syria this year? Do you think the young men, women and children over there are not saying exactly the same thing to each other? It's 2 sides of the same coin man. It can't be right for us to do it but not them?

 

The answer is none of it is fucking right.

[Renton 21983]

No, it doesn't have to be one or the other ffs. They can both be to blame. Watch the video above. Sums up the ridiculousness of the situation perfectly

It was clear where you put most the blame.

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

Fuck off with your righteousness man, you've got a right hard on for me today.