Saudi Arabia

[Howmanheyman 33209]

(Like Don, he's a bit of a 'whispering grass' as well).

[Kitman 2207]

 

It's not as though the extreme side of corporal punishment is the only thing that separates Saudi Arabia from the rest of the world. Saudi Arabia don't treat their citizens like some states in the U.S, or like Australia or the UK in the 60s. They treat their citizens like absolute dogshit, like peasants, or slaves. To suggest there is an element of hypocrisy in criticisms of Middle Eastern governments' treatment of their populace based upon historical considerations is just wrong. To me this is just another angle of this sense of taboo that is arising in western society against criticising bad ideas. Bad ideas should be criticised because they are bad. Any other consideration is irrelevant, including hurting someone's feelings. Too bad.

 

This is my opinion, if you disagree, I will take gigantic swathes of offence. Just warning you. My trigger words are: tumblr, berating, imo, that's offensive, evolution, Chez.

Well played sir. Perfectly put.

[Park Life 71]

We set up House of Saud like the mischief makers we are.

[Happy Face 29]

 

It's not as though the extreme side of corporal punishment is the only thing that separates Saudi Arabia from the rest of the world. Saudi Arabia don't treat their citizens like some states in the U.S, or like Australia or the UK in the 60s. They treat their citizens like absolute dogshit, like peasants, or slaves. To suggest there is an element of hypocrisy in criticisms of Middle Eastern governments' treatment of their populace based upon historical considerations is just wrong. To me this is just another angle of this sense of taboo that is arising in western society against criticising bad ideas. Bad ideas should be criticised because they are bad. Any other consideration is irrelevant, including hurting someone's feelings. Too bad.

 

This is my opinion, if you disagree, I will take gigantic swathes of offence. Just warning you. My trigger words are: tumblr, berating, imo, that's offensive, evolution, Chez.

 

I thought their implementation of the death penalty was the main topic. Beheadings is what the OP mentions to justify the thread sub-heading of "savages" and the nature of their punishments leads to a label like "medieval".

 

Funny you mention evolution and then...

 

 

I agree. The left have become too apologetic of the indefensible because we feel guilty about our own flaws. Let's not always blame ourselves for things that are entirely abhorrent.

 

The west isn't perfect but we're centuries ahead in evolutionary terms compared to some Middle eastern states.

 

I'm not excusing the death penalty in the middle east, I think it's abhorrent wherever it's used. I couldn't agree more with Toonotl on criticiziing bad ideas wherever they're implemented. While the Saudi's and US have ostensibly the same policy on killing criminals, It's implemented with greater frequency in Saudi Arabia at the moment, but in both cases the numbers put to death are relatively small (say compared to the number of innocent people we blow up with flying robots I mean).

 

I'm delighted to live in the UK rather than a repressive regime like Saudi Arabia. We criminalise peaceful protest in certain areas and move people on, they criminalise it and hand down the death penalty. They give the lashes and jail time to victims of rape, we imprison the rapists.

 

But then you say we're centuries more "evolved", for me there's a racist connotation, obviously anyone with an ounce of sense sees the term as a metaphor, but it's a statement that plays up to a BNP style view of biological superiority. There's no evolutionary difference, just policy. Most absolute monarchy's have to have somewhat harsher policies than democracies, what with the people rising up against you if they're not in constant fear.

 

Were the British of the 1970s more evolved than the British of the 1960s having passed legislation to legalise homosexuality? Course not, just a bit more liberal. Being 40 years (and counting) ahead of a country on sexual equality then calling them backward, medieval savages hardly says that much for our own enlightenment.

 

I'm rambling, point is, by any measure the Saudi leadership are horrific twats. Much worse than any democratically elected leaders. They deserve complete condemnation for the way they run things and the fact they're chairing the human rights commission is a joke up there with giving Obama the Nobel Peace Prize and the fact that he sells them their cluster bombs. Saudi Arabians are not medieval savages centuries behind you and me though.

[Dr Gloom 21923]

Im sure the majority of their oppressed people aren't but the cunts who run the state are.

[NJS 4385]

Evolved is the wrong word - I don't see anything wrong with using civilised, developed of enlightened - the latter especially given the religious angle. That applies to the US as well to a certain degree.

[toonotl 2979]

 

I thought their implementation of the death penalty was the main topic. Beheadings is what the OP mentions to justify the thread sub-heading of "savages" and the nature of their punishments leads to a label like "medieval".

 

Funny you mention evolution and then...

 

 

 

I'm not excusing the death penalty in the middle east, I think it's abhorrent wherever it's used. I couldn't agree more with Toonotl on criticiziing bad ideas wherever they're implemented. While the Saudi's and US have ostensibly the same policy on killing criminals, It's implemented with greater frequency in Saudi Arabia at the moment, but in both cases the numbers put to death are relatively small (say compared to the number of innocent people we blow up with flying robots I mean).

 

I'm delighted to live in the UK rather than a repressive regime like Saudi Arabia. We criminalise peaceful protest in certain areas and move people on, they criminalise it and hand down the death penalty. They give the lashes and jail time to victims of rape, we imprison the rapists.

 

But then you say we're centuries more "evolved", for me there's a racist connotation, obviously anyone with an ounce of sense sees the term as a metaphor, but it's a statement that plays up to a BNP style view of biological superiority. There's no evolutionary difference, just policy. Most absolute monarchy's have to have somewhat harsher policies than democracies, what with the people rising up against you if they're not in constant fear.

 

Were the British of the 1970s more evolved than the British of the 1960s having passed legislation to legalise homosexuality? Course not, just a bit more liberal. Being 40 years (and counting) ahead of a country on sexual equality then calling them backward, medieval savages hardly says that much for our own enlightenment.

 

I'm rambling, point is, by any measure the Saudi leadership are horrific twats. Much worse than any democratically elected leaders. They deserve complete condemnation for the way they run things and the fact they're chairing the human rights commission is a joke up there with giving Obama the Nobel Peace Prize and the fact that he sells them their cluster bombs. Saudi Arabians are not medieval savages centuries behind you and me though.

 

Obviously there is no evolutionary difference. Not to put words in Gloomy's mouth, but I think he probably misspoke and simply meant to say that, as a society, Saudi Arabia is extremely backward. So I don't think we need to pull the trigger on racism accusations.

 

On Saudi Arabians being 'medieval savages'. I don't even know what that means to be honest. What I do know is that in a lot of ways many Middle Eastern governments limit the social freedoms of their citizens more than the Medieval Caliphates of their forebears. So, in that sense, are the Saudi Arabian rulers 'medieval savages'? No. Not yet.

[Park Life 71]

IQ's are low according to some University research somewhere on the internet.

[Happy Face 29]

 

Obviously there is no evolutionary difference. Not to put words in Gloomy's mouth, but I think he probably misspoke and simply meant to say that, as a society, Saudi Arabia is extremely backward. So I don't think we need to pull the trigger on racism accusations.

 

On Saudi Arabians being 'medieval savages'. I don't even know what that means to be honest. What I do know is that in a lot of ways many Middle Eastern governments limit the social freedoms of their citizens more than the Medieval Caliphates of their forebears. So, in that sense, are the Saudi Arabian rulers 'medieval savages'? No. Not yet.

 

You mentioned "evolution" first

[toonotl 2979]

[Kitman 2207]

 

Obviously there is no evolutionary difference. Not to put words in Gloomy's mouth, but I think he probably misspoke and simply meant to say that, as a society, Saudi Arabia is extremely backward. So I don't think we need to pull the trigger on racism accusations.

 

On Saudi Arabians being 'medieval savages'. I don't even know what that means to be honest. What I do know is that in a lot of ways many Middle Eastern governments limit the social freedoms of their citizens more than the Medieval Caliphates of their forebears. So, in that sense, are the Saudi Arabian rulers 'medieval savages'? No. Not yet.

I think I used the word medieval but it was to describe the regime (which as I understand it is basically feudal), not the people. I dont think I used the word savages.

 

The Saudi royal family preside over an abhorrent and backward regime....in particular their attitude to human rights, protest, religious freedom, women, foreign workers and crime/punishment. Plus I believe they're implicated in funding terrorism (altho I havent seen the evidence).

 

My Dad worked in Saudi for 2 years, and I know people who've worked in Qatar and Dubai. All of these places sound lime they have repressive governments but Saudi sounds like the worst. You couldnt pay me enough to live there tbh.

 

To play the racist card or talk about relativity to the US is strawman stuff imo.

For the record, I disagree with the death penalty in the US, which I also think is abhorrent and backward in this respect (regardless of how they kill their criminals).

[Monkeys Fist 42444]

As my dad used to say ' if it wasn't for the oil they would still be shagging camels'. Or was it my mam

 

 

Your mam shags camels?

 

 

IQ's are low according to some University research somewhere on the internet.

Circle of Life

[toonotl 2979]

I think I used the word medieval but it was to describe the regime (which as I understand it is basically feudal), not the people. I dont think I used the word savages.

 

The Saudi royal family preside over an abhorrent and backward regime....in particular their attitude to human rights, protest, religious freedom, women, foreign workers and crime/punishment. Plus I believe they're implicated in funding terrorism (altho I havent seen the evidence).

 

My Dad worked in Saudi for 2 years, and I know people who've worked in Qatar and Dubai. All of these places sound lime they have repressive governments but Saudi sounds like the worst. You couldnt pay me enough to live there tbh.

 

To play the racist card or talk about relativity to the US is strawman stuff imo.

For the record, I disagree with the death penalty in the US, which I also think is abhorrent and backward in this respect (regardless of how they kill their criminals).

 

Yeah. I think 'medieval' is perfectly acceptable. It does a good job of expressing the idea that the Saudi government are backward. That might be offensive but too bad. It's just the truth. Personally, I would have said 'bronze age' myself, but I'm a sooopa-racist I suppose.

 

I don't mean to pile of HF because he has a point too. Racism is horrible, but calling a backward government backward is not racism.

Edited October 19, 2015 by toonotl

[Happy Face 29]

But calling an entire nation (of brown skinned people who wear funny looking clothes) unevolved savages on the back of their death penalty while never ever calling the white people (who wear Levi's and t-shirts) unevolved savages despite their death penalty is somewhat.

[Happy Face 29]

To be fair to Parky, he did say in his OP "A barbarous cruel dictatorship of wahabi princelings" so my lefty liberal racism Geiger counter took a high reading from the subject and sub-heading, without looking at the detail there which is spot on

[Kitman 2207]

But calling an entire nation (of brown skinned people who wear funny looking clothes) unevolved savages on the back of their death penalty while never ever calling the white people (who wear Levi's and t-shirts) unevolved savages despite their death penalty is somewhat.

Yes, because that's exactly what he said.

[Happy Face 29]

Yes, because that's exactly what he said.

 

I'm talking about as a society. I don't think anyone who's posted in here is actually racist. But the conversation in Britain is framed by certain parameters depending upon who it is abusing human rights.

 

Every time someone on death row in the US is about to get fried there's reports on the news and a very grown up discussion ensues about the rights the wrongs and the efficacy of the death penalty,

 

Every time someone gets the death penalty in the middle east they're unevolved savages. End off.

[ewerk 30610]

I haven't read this thread but regarding the above, they don't help themselves with that image when they're using some very antiquated forms of execution and for 'crimes' that many civilised societies wouldn't deem as such.

Edited October 20, 2015 by ewerk

[Happy Face 29]

I haven't read this thread but regarding the above, they don't help themselves with that image when they're using some very antiquated forms of execution.

 

Perhaps.

 

Personally I think hoying a sack over someone's head, shoving a stick in their mouth and pumping electricity through them repeatedly until they're dead is every bit as horrific as taking their head off.

 

The advantages of technology do give heinous things a veneer of acceptability though. Lethal injections have failed a few times, but by and large are seen as much more humane. Doing these distasteful things behind closed doors is also seen as more civilised, rather than in front of a blood-thirsty mob, which would surely turn up in ANY country that allowed it.

[NJS 4385]

As I said above, I think there's a parallel religious savagery between the US and Saudi penal codes. Might seem like a push but the more religious states in the US seem to show the most enthusiasm for the death penalty.

 

I'd also point to the practice of inviting onlookers to executions as another similarity.

 

I don't think there's any difference between injecting drug cocktails and crucifixions from an ethical pov but executing people for protest or apostasy is worthy of an extra level of protest.

[ewerk 30610]

When was the last time that the electric chair was forced on anyone? AFAIK it's an option for some death row inmates but lethal injection is the states' preferred option.

 

Either way the outcome is the same. It's one of those areas where certain parts of USA is decades behind the rest of the civilised world.

[Dr Gloom 21923]

But calling an entire nation (of brown skinned people who wear funny looking clothes) unevolved savages on the back of their death penalty while never ever calling the white people (who wear Levi's and t-shirts) unevolved savages despite their death penalty is somewhat.

It's not just the death penalty though is it that sets them apart?

 

I think it's perfectly fair to say the cunts that run the place are a few steps behind in evolutionary terms than those at the top of western democracies. That's not to say we're perfect by the way but let's not be afraid to call something for what it is.

 

It's got fuck all to do with the colour of their skin or their silly clothes and everything to do with the lack basic human rights the majority of their population suffer. Imagine being a women over there and not even being able to leave the house without a male escort. It's like slavery, man.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Dr Gloom

[The Fish 10857]

 

Perhaps.

 

Personally I think hoying a sack over someone's head, shoving a stick in their mouth and pumping electricity through them repeatedly until they're dead is every bit as horrific as taking their head off.

 

The advantages of technology do give heinous things a veneer of acceptability though. Lethal injections have failed a few times, but by and large are seen as much more humane. Doing these distasteful things behind closed doors is also seen as more civilised, rather than in front of a blood-thirsty mob, which would surely turn up in ANY country that allowed it.

I think we all agree that killing someone as a punishment is barbaric, the issue for me is more the crimes that return a death penalty verdict:

 

In the States the crimes punishable by death are:

Causing death by using a chemical weapon or a weapon of mass destruction

Killing a member of the Congress, the Cabinet or United States Supreme Court

Kidnapping a member of the Congress, the Cabinet or Supreme Court resulting in death

Conspiracy to kill a member of the Congress, the Cabinet or Supreme Court resulting in death

Causing death by using an explosive

Causing death by using an illegal firearm

Causing death during a drug-related drive-by shooting

Genocide resulting in death

Carjacking resulting in death

Willful destruction of aircraft or motor vehicles resulting in death.

Causing death by aircraft hijacking or any attempt to commit aircraft hijacking.

Causing death by kidnapping or hostage taking.

First degree murder

Murder perpetrated by poison or lying in wait

Murder that is willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated

Murder in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any arson, torture, escape, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery.

Murder perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children

Murder committed by a federal prisoner or an escaped federal prisoner sentenced to 15 years to life or a more severe penalty

Assassinating the President or a member of his staff

Kidnapping the President or a member of his staff resulting in death

Killing persons aiding Federal investigations or State correctional officers

Willful wrecking of a train resulting in death

Sexual abuse resulting in death

Sexual exploitation of children resulting in death

Torture resulting in death

War crimes resulting in death

Large-scale drug trafficking

Attempting, authorizing or advising the killing of any officer, juror, or witness in cases involving a Continuing Criminal Enterprise, even if such killing does not occur.

Espionage

Treason

 

All but 4 of these are just different descriptions of 'a crime that causes death'.

 

In Saudi, however, the death penalty is meted out for:

 

Adultery (Unmarried adulterers can be sentenced to 100 lashes, married ones can be sentenced to stoning.)

Apostasy (Apostates are sentenced to beheading but are usually given three days to repent and return to Islam.)

Armed robbery

Blasphemy

Burglary

Carjacking

Aircraft hijacking

Drug smuggling

Fornication

Home invasion

Sodomy, homosexuality, or lesbianism (If a man or woman is sodomized by their own consent, then they will also be sentenced to death along with the sodomizer)

Idolatry

Murder

Rape

Sedition

Sexual misconduct

Sorcery

Terrorism

Theft (fourth conviction)

Treason

Waging war on God

Witchcraft

 

I mean, let us set aside the fact their omnipotent deity needs so much protection from men saying mean words about him, but for fucks sake, Sorcery? Witchcraft? It's 2015.

[Dr Gloom 21923]

[Kitman 2207]

 

I'm talking about as a society. I don't think anyone who's posted in here is actually racist. But the conversation in Britain is framed by certain parameters depending upon who it is abusing human rights.

 

Every time someone on death row in the US is about to get fried there's reports on the news and a very grown up discussion ensues about the rights the wrongs and the efficacy of the death penalty,

 

Every time someone gets the death penalty in the middle east they're unevolved savages. End off.

OK I get where you're coming from, I don't see the context of the debate in Britain obviously. I don't think there's any moral difference between the US and Saudi stand on the death penalty but the medium of execution in Saudi seems particularly brutal. Plus isn't the saudi approach based on shariah law which involves stoning, whipping and severing hands etc? Plus a lack of legal process? Viewed as a whole, isn't the Saudi system of justice more savage than western justice?