Ranger

[Rayvin 5131]

3 minutes ago, adios said:

I'm sure Ranger would appreciate the diversion.

 

Oh, I am most definitely of the opinion that free-will is an illusion.  It might be the only thing I've firmly believed for a long time because I've never found a decent counter-argument.  I think both sides of the current neuroscience argument are focusing on the wrong thing.

 

I don't believe in a deterministic Universe because the Universe makes infinite "decisions" every second.

 

I've generally found that people are uncomfortable with the point because they like to feel they are in control of their own lives - so I've generally been told that 'we simply do' have free will, rather than had it demonstrated. But agreed, decent counter arguments are in short supply. I could go on at some length about this as I've thought about it in depth, but it'll just trigger eye-rolling from everyone else and I'm sure greater minds than ours have reflected on this already

Edited May 25, 2017 by Rayvin

[ewerk 29798]

34 minutes ago, adios said:

His genetics and environment led him to where he is; ours led us to where we are.

 

Easy on there Adolf.

[adios 717]

[adios 717]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I've generally found that people are uncomfortable with the point because they like to feel they are in control of their own lives.

 

I've concluded the same, though I've no proof of it.  It's quite a cunt of a thing for your ego to accept.

 

Anyway, back to the Nile-bashing.

[The Fish 10543]

38 minutes ago, adios said:

From my perspective?  Never.  But what matters is how we frame things to most benefit people's mindsets.

 

We're all on rails and the only thing controlling the switches is probability.  The apparatus for decision making and the data it draws on are cast in stone before we have any idea what's going on.

 

Maybe I should take this to the wolfy thread.  

 

I don't agree that we're on rails. We have different starting points and of course we're influenced and socialised to behave in certain ways, but we can choose to stay the course or change tack. I mean, this is a man who has been removed from those apparent negative influences while still a young man. Once in an environment that rewards professionalism to such an extent, it behoves the individual to accept this fresh influence. He must have seen kids who behaved badly binned off. He must have seen the crushing devastation when a kid's dream is snatched away from him.

 

As I've said, football accepts kids largely from lower socioeconomic groups where, perhaps, the right messages haven't got through. Why have the majority of these other kids, starting from similar backgrounds who get a professional football career, changed their ways but Ranger can't? Were his formative instructions that much more entrenched than others? Was he particularly less privileged than everyone else? I don't buy it. Some people are just wrong'uns and choose to remain so.

 

He's seen the same signposts everyone else has, but he's chosen to remain on a path that is ruining his life. He's done that because he arrogantly believes he'll get another chance, that his talent is enough. When all he's heard from managers, fans and the media that he'd be great if he could just sort that side of his life out. And he must hear it because after every infraction he trots out the same "This is my last chance and I know I have to sort that side of my life out" bullshit.

 

I'm all for consideration of the broader picture, but Ranger isn't some victim of his environment any more because it's not his environment anymore. He's the arbiter of his fate and as such need to take responsibility. He's a grown man who's had more chances, more opportunities than any of the kids he grew up with and every time he fucks up it's a slap in the face to those kids who, despite coming from the same neighbourhoods, would likely behave better than he has.

[Rayvin 5131]

Yeah but you're arguing on two different philosophical understandings now. Adios believes there is no free will - with good logical basis IMO - and that what happened to Ranger is incontrovertible and couldn't have happened any other way. You believe there is free will, and that Ranger has failed to take his opportunities.  So you can't argue the specific case any more; to make any progress you'd have to argue the fundamental understanding of whether or not free will exists.

 

Deep huh?

[Alex 34279]

He's a cunt.

[adios 717]

  ICWUDT.

[The Fish 10543]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

Yeah but you're arguing on two different philosophical understandings now. Adios believes there is no free will - with good logical basis IMO - and that what happened to Ranger is incontrovertible and couldn't have happened any other way. You believe there is free will, and that Ranger has failed to take his opportunities.  So you can't argue the specific case any more; to make any progress you'd have to argue the fundamental understanding of whether or not free will exists.

 

Deep huh?

 

I can argue that were there no free will at all, there would be no examples of kids from deprived and/or destructive foundations making anything of their lives. I don't disagree that formative years can limit or broaden one's horizons, but to say that if you're born into X you will forever behave that way is, imo, patently untrue. There's a slither of individuality that decides a path, each choice will obviously be made based on prior choices, but there remains, at it's core, a choice.

[adios 717]

4 minutes ago, The Fish said:

but to say that if you're born into X you will forever behave that way is, imo, patently untrue.

And as far as I can see, no one is saying that.  We are all evolving, all the time.

 

Answer my simple question, DAVE.

 

3 hours ago, adios said:

Why is he thick as shite?  Not what has it resulted in, but where did it originate.

 

@The Fish

 

[The Fish 10543]

Just now, adios said:

And as far as I can see, no one is saying that.  We are all evolving, all the time.

 

Answer my simple question, DAVE.

 

 

 

Poor education, poor application, poor choices. 

 

 

[Park Life 71]

Course there's fukin free will. What about free Willy? /Wolfie

Edited May 25, 2017 by Park Life

[Monkeys Fist 41508]

I'd say it's caused by over consumption of dutty custard. 

Dulls the synapses, natural science™ , innit? 

 

 

 

™Denpressure.org.uk. 

[adios 717]

3 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

Poor education, poor application, poor choices. 

 

 

Kind of a side issue here, but you don't believe there's a biological component to intelligence?

[Park Life 71]

6 minutes ago, adios said:

Kind of a side issue here, but you don't believe there's a biological component to intelligence?

This is how it starts....Ends with Eugenics.

[adios 717]

I'll be honest, if I was in charge I wouldn't make the cut.

[Park Life 71]

2 minutes ago, adios said:

I'll be honest, if I was in charge I wouldn't make the cut.

Best reason to take charge.

[Monkeys Fist 41508]

3 minutes ago, adios said:

I'll be honest, if I was in charge I wouldn't make the cut.

I'd need to measure your skull before deciding that. 

[Park Life 71]

Don't hold out much hope tbf.

 

[Monkeys Fist 41508]

What's CT got to with this, the fucking pinhead? 

[adios 717]

t

 

 

tbs tbs

[The Fish 10543]

20 minutes ago, adios said:

Kind of a side issue here, but you don't believe there's a biological component to intelligence?

 

I do, but it's a component. It's a kernel of intelligence that needs nurturing.

[Monkeys Fist 41508]

Wasn't James Bond a kernel of intelligence? 

 

 

 

Might've been a Loo Tenant?

[adios 717]

 Dad jokes!

[adios 717]

15 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

I do, but it's a component. It's a kernel of intelligence that needs nurturing.

Ok, so if I'm reading you right, we agree that there is a core biological engine surrounded by data (experiences/education/environment) that it feeds off?