Makom 0 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Duff left a team he got relegated for another Premier League team. Martins left a team he got relegated to join the Bundesliga Champions. I have no idea if their contract terms were worse or you're just lying, but watching you try to spin those two outcomes as examples of performance penalties was worth the entrance fee alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10855 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Duff left a team he got relegated for another Premier League team. Martins left a team he got relegated to join the Bundesliga Champions. I have no idea if their contract terms were worse or you're just lying, but watching you try to spin those two outcomes as examples of performance penalties was worth the entrance fee alone. You yourself said the amount they were paid at Newcastle was likely to be inflated, therefore the likely wage at Fulham for Duff would be lower. He also played for a "smaller" team than the one he left. Martins joined Wolfsburg, not a side famed for their largesse, who ply their trade in a league similarly frugal (outside of Buying Munich) so to suggest that I was "lying" about them and that in fact they'd be on improved contracts is "worth the entrance fee alone". (Interesting sidebar, Martins' Wolfsburg was put out of the Europa by Duff's Fulham) You seem to be saying their should be a punishment meted out by the FA, the Premier League or whomever. I'm stating there is already a punishment which occurs naturally and any formal penalty would be over-egging the pudding, difficult to enforce, and another level of pointless bureaucracy. Use, for example, this season. Which players do you punish? All of them? Why should Janmaat or Perez suffer, simply because their team-mates are fucking shit? Should Siem de Jong be punished, even though he's missed most of the season through injury? What about Aarons? Should his progress be stymied simply because in his absence experienced, international footballers have been dog shit? Do Burnley's stars face another year in the Championship even though they played their hearts out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I only said Owen was likely to be on ridiculous money, and therefore the only one out of those who was actually likely to have suffered a pay cut (but still joined a Premier League club). You appear to be inventing the claim that Duff/Martins were on inflated wages (or are otherwise claiming without any proof to know what their terms were) just to support your nonsense idea that somehow leaving the Premier League club you help get relegated to go to another PL club/the Bundesliga Champions is somehow a punishment. It's beyond ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 And if Burnley players played their hearts out and were PL standard players, then they wouldn't have been relegated, would they? Only an idiot rewards a player's honest effort with a position beyond their evident ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42392 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think you'll find the precise details of Duff et al's NUFC contracts here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Mako, I agree with more of your points than most on here (I think there's been one so far) but Fish is right with this IMO. If the player is in a team that goes down, it would severely weaken his hand in negotiations with other clubs, especially if he wanted to remain a PL player. Granted there may be some exceptions where a bidding war triggers, but ultimately this is quite a rare occurrence. At least that's how I see it. I do actually kind of get your wider point about players not taking responsibility for their failure, but that's not the world we live in. If my company went bust tomorrow due to generally poor working practices of the staff, myself included, I would very likely be looking at a lower paid job to begin with, even if I was employed immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think you'll find the precise details of Duff et al's NUFC contracts here That's Boba Fett rather than a storm trooper mind, whoever named that gif needs shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42392 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 True, but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Touché. Edited May 22, 2015 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Sorry, but I'm not having it. Having a slightly weaker hand in negotiating your next PL contract is nothing like what would happen in the real world to people in normal jobs who had as much of a hand in their company failing as arguably 20+ appearance players do in a relegation season. This nonsense is also pretty much ignoring the fact that Premier League contracts have been on a massive inflationary curve anyway, so any weakened position will only slightly decrease what is already a huge increase. To call it a punishment or performance penalty is utter nonsense, in the PL era players probably have a bigger penalty over their career by simply having a shit agent than anything performance related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Sorry, but I'm not having it. Having a slightly weaker hand in negotiating your next PL contract is nothing like what would happen in the real world to people in normal jobs who had as much of a hand in their company failing as arguably 20+ appearance players do in a relegation season. This nonsense is also pretty much ignoring the fact that Premier League contracts have been on a massive inflationary curve anyway, so any weakened position will only slightly decrease what is already a huge increase. To call it a punishment or performance penalty is utter nonsense, in the PL era players probably have a bigger penalty over their career by simply having a shit agent than anything performance related. But does your acknowledgement of a general increase mitigating the difference not mean that there is at least an opportunity cost, even if it's not realised in an actual salary decrease? For instance, if these players had been preforming to a higher level, and had not been relegated, then they would have been able to secure higher wages than they could move to if the club went bust. Otherwise, I suppose I understand the balance of the rest of the point...but then, even if a player can choose another PL club, it's not like Tiote is going to be able to get his move to Arsenal, or that PSG are going to come calling for Sissoko - they're more likely to get picked up by Stoke now. It does have an effect. Edited May 22, 2015 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42392 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Sorry, but I'm not having it. Having a slightly weaker hand in negotiating your next PL contract is nothing like what would happen in the real world to people in normal jobs who had as much of a hand in their company failing as arguably 20+ appearance players do in a relegation season. This nonsense is also pretty much ignoring the fact that Premier League contracts have been on a massive inflationary curve anyway, so any weakened position will only slightly decrease what is already a huge increase. To call it a punishment or performance penalty is utter nonsense, in the PL era players probably have a bigger penalty over their career by simply having a shit agent than anything performance related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 If Arsenal want Tiote, he's going there whether we get relegated or not. That's just football reality. Players only end up at Stoke if they're only good enough for Stoke, it really has nothing to do with whether or not they have relegations on their CV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 The relegation itself? No. Performing poorly enough to actually get relegated? That probably does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Could Beye, Martins, Owen, Duff etc have got better clubs? I seriously doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42392 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Since Owen went to Man Utd , you're probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2978 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Why is this boring cunt so obsessed with the machinations of footballing contracts? It makes literally zero difference to any of our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Don't fucking read it then you spanner. I know it's unusual for Toontastic, but I'd say people discussing the ins and outs of footballers contracts is EXACTLY what you'd expect to find in thread on a football forum titled "Footballers Wages". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10855 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Could Beye, Martins, Owen, Duff etc have got better clubs? I seriously doubt it. Probably because they performed badly enough that they were part of a relegated team and experienced a natural penalty for that poor performance. Say we'd finished mid table because Duff and the others who left had performed better, of course they could have commanded better terms in their new contract. Owen is the exception as he was still able to trade on his grander reputation, more than the others could. I believe there should be a better structure to contracts so that performance and contribution is somehow better represented in the terms. I don't believe you should punish all players for being relegated as many times there are more factors to a teams relegation. For example, we would not be facing relegation if we had replaced Pardew with a proper coach, instead of Make a Wish Foundation beneficiary. Janmaat & Perez have performed admirably in an awful situation and their careers shouldn't suffer because Charnley is incompetent. Ditto Danny Ings, he shouldn't be punished because Burnley didn't gamble their financial future on buying a stack of players who may not have been enough to rescue them from the inevitable. Like I said, punishing all players isn't the solution. A more focussed approach is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makom 0 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Probably because they performed badly enough that they were part of a relegated team and experienced a natural penalty for that poor performance. Say we'd finished mid table because Duff and the others who left had performed better, of course they could have commanded better terms in their new contract. Owen is the exception as he was still able to trade on his grander reputation, more than the others could. I believe there should be a better structure to contracts so that performance and contribution is somehow better represented in the terms. I don't believe you should punish all players for being relegated as many times there are more factors to a teams relegation. For example, we would not be facing relegation if we had replaced Pardew with a proper coach, instead of Make a Wish Foundation beneficiary. Janmaat & Perez have performed admirably in an awful situation and their careers shouldn't suffer because Charnley is incompetent. Ditto Danny Ings, he shouldn't be punished because Burnley didn't gamble their financial future on buying a stack of players who may not have been enough to rescue them from the inevitable. Like I said, punishing all players isn't the solution. A more focussed approach is required. You have no idea whether they could have negotiated better terms or not, you're just claiming they could have to support the nonsense idea that they somehow suffered a personal punishment for being relegated. They clearly didn't. Beye went to Villa because he was that standard of player, that didn't magically change once we were relegated. Anyone who thinks he got a worse contract than if he'd left in January is simply deluding themselves. Likewise, there will be no appreciable difference in where Janmaat et al will be able to go, should the worse happen tomorrow. And god knows why you're even mentioning Ings - Burnley went down because they failed to score enough goals. On what planet does that become a good argument for allowing their strike-force to leave for another PL club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 7295 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 You should try out some other hobbies Mako, you may find something you're good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2978 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Don't fucking read it then you spanner. I know it's unusual for Toontastic, but I'd say people discussing the ins and outs of footballers contracts is EXACTLY what you'd expect to find in thread on a football forum titled "Footballers Wages". No. But why though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawb 4247 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 You have no idea whether they could have negotiated better terms or not, you're just claiming they could have to support the nonsense idea that they somehow suffered a personal punishment for being relegated. They clearly didn't. Beye went to Villa because he was that standard of player, that didn't magically change once we were relegated. Anyone who thinks he got a worse contract than if he'd left in January is simply deluding themselves. Likewise, there will be no appreciable difference in where Janmaat et al will be able to go, should the worse happen tomorrow. And god knows why you're even mentioning Ings - Burnley went down because they failed to score enough goals. On what planet does that become a good argument for allowing their strike-force to leave for another PL club? I don't post much, mostly lurk. Reading your shite would put a glass eye to sleep. If you think that Burnley's struggling to score goals this season is down to the forwards, rather than the team as whole you understand less about football than you do about brevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2978 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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