Alex 35083 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Over rating Carr a little bit. We've signed more foreign shite than we have genuinely class players. This whole 'top scout' 'top contacts' angle over the last few years has been the result of spin from the club/chronicle to justify our excessively 'prudent' approach in the market. I said he has good contacts (he has). I didn't say all his recommendations had paid off. He's working within tight constraints though so that's inevitable. Ironic that you're accusing people of being contrary when all you've done is put words into other people's mouths because you can't counter their arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10857 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think there are two points here. 1. Did we actually meet with any of these people? It seems likely that we did meet with Garde given his own comments but has there even been any press suggestions that we have met with any of the other names linked? 2. Did we meet with the likes of Garde because he looked suitable and then find out that he wouldn't submit to Ashley's law? If so we could meet with Jose, Sir Alex, KK or whoever and know that there's no chance of them coming in anyway. To respond to your second point: Garde, Tuchel, De Boer have all operated under similar restrictions at the clubs where they were "successful". So there's clear evidence that they'd be at least used to that regime. That's no guarantee they'd do it again, but given the DoF role is becoming more and more popular it seems unlikely that modern, progressive head coaches like these would suddenly u-turn. The level of coach we've been linked with aren't out of our reach, they'd be interested in the project and aren't nearly as unrealistic as those you've mentioned for effect. Also, what is the benefit of meeting with Garde, if not to discuss the role seriously? Why not simply release vague sttement saying you've been in touch with some candidates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 And if the right man doesn't want to come right now but is willing to talk in the summer? Whoever he is gets told the job is available now and not in the summer. Who's going to make the decision on the likes on Sammy, Ryan Taylor etc who are out of contract soon? Carver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1245 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 That's another issue entirely. Thing is, as I've said, you guys can state that relegation is assured or a very real threat or whatever and no matter what, come the end of the season, you're safe in that prediction. If you're wrong we've stayed up and that's all right, if you're right you can crow about it. My prediction; that we'll survive, means I can't crow about it even if we achieve it. Because it's a poor ambition for a club like ours. It may be another issue but it's certainly a reason why we have no confidence whatsoever in our overlords ability or interest in appointing anyone who we (the people who actually care about what go's on on the field) can think positively about. But no one (not even Kevin Carr in his addmittedly over the top prediction) said that relegation was a certainty. It clearly is a real threat though. We manged 10 league wins in 2014 (or about that after Cabaye was sold) with a clown in charge of running the team. Now we arguably have someone with less ability leading the team so is it reasonable to have no concerns that we will end the season in a similar fashion to last season? If we do relegation will be very close. And to say that we will all crow about it if it does happen is ridiculous. If we do go down I will be rightly fuming at Ashley, Penfold et al but I certainly won't be digging through all of your posts in this thread in some petty attempt to score points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I said he has good contacts (he has). I didn't say all his recommendations had paid off. He's working within tight constraints though so that's inevitable. Ironic that you're accusing people of being contrary when all you've done is put words into other people's mouths because you can't counter their arguments. Well you saying '(he has)' has convinced me. I can't think of many examples of us reaping the rewards of his bulging address book mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10857 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 That was sarcasm. Hardly the same. Anyway, on one hand I admire your semi-positive outlook. On the other I think it is unjust of you to label fans as being irrational when they have, quite reasonably, lost all faith with Ashley to act in the best interests of the football club. And I think you should do the decent thing and apologise to everyone. Behave, the shit I get on here and you want me to apologise for calling out the histrionics that has gone on recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30611 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Whoever he is gets told the job is available now and not in the summer. Who's going to make the decision on the likes on Sammy, Ryan Taylor etc who are out of contract soon? Carver? That's taking a very short term view of things though, if the club will be stronger over the next five years by waiting five months for this appointment then I'm happy to wait. Whether the club are capable of appointing the right man is a different question. And as has already been made clear by the club, the head coach will have very little input into transfers so it's likely that Charnley will have the final say on out of contract players but that would be the case regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well you saying '(he has)' has convinced me. I can't think of many examples of us reaping the rewards of his bulging address book mind. Cabaye, Sissoko, Tiote, Debuchy off the top of my head. Not just about spotting the players either. It's about convincing them to come and part of that is putting in the groundwork which demonstrates that you value them as a player. As opposed to just trying to buy them because they're available and you liked a youtube compilation with an electro house soundtrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 That's taking a very short term view of things though, if the club will be stronger over the next five years by waiting five months for this appointment then I'm happy to wait. Whether the club are capable of appointing the right man is a different question. And as has already been made clear by the club, the head coach will have very little input into transfers so it's likely that Charnley will have the final say on out of contract players but that would be the case regardless. Surely whether the manager is likely to select them will have a bearing on whether they'll be retained. A very short term view After waiting patiently for the 5 year plan to bear fruit, it's not unreasonable to expect the club to act decisively and address this now. This whole 'long term' 'better tomorrow' thing is bollocks. Because it won't be will it? Like when we sold Carroll we wouldn't panic buy a replacement. Then Ba. Then we sold Cabaye and wouldn't panic buy a replacement. The reality is the future never gets brighter because the following season something else happens and we write another half a season off whilst 'refusing to panic'. Give your head a shake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Cabaye, Sissoko, Tiote, Debuchy off the top of my head. Not just about spotting the players either. It's about convincing them to come and part of that is putting in the groundwork which demonstrates that you value them as a player. As opposed to just trying to buy them because they're available and you liked a youtube compilation with an electro house soundtrack. 3 of those were title winners at the clubs we bought them off. And Sissoko was hardly an unknown. That groundwork has been to sell us as a stepping stone club. Which is why as soon as any of our foreign players string together 4 or 5 good games they're in the press talking about other clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7083 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Behave, the shit I get on here and you want me to apologise for calling out the histrionics that has gone on recently? Thought you'd like that. Histrionics one of our best players the last few years tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 3 of those were title winners at the clubs we bought them off. And Sissoko was hardly an unknown. That groundwork has been to sell us as a stepping stone club. Which is why as soon as any of our foreign players string together 4 or 5 good games they're in the press talking about other clubs. So signing them suggests good contacts and excellent groundwork then. If not, why didn't someone beat us to their signature? And you questioned which we'd reaped the benefit of, which is what I was replying to. I appreciate directly responding to what people have written as opposed to what you'd like them to have written doesn't fit your style but that's your problem tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10857 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Thought you'd like that. Histrionics one of our best players the last few years tbf. He certainly gets a lot of game time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 So signing them suggests good contacts and excellent groundwork then. If not, why didn't someone beat us to their signature? And you questioned which we'd reaped the benefit of, which is what I was replying to. I appreciate directly responding to what people have written as opposed to what you'd like them to have written doesn't fit your style but that's your problem tbh. Maybe nobody else was interested and we simply submitted offers to the respective clubs? Good contacts to me would suggest being able to sign good players that are off the proverbial radar. I seem to remember McClaren being integral in recommending Tiote so hardly an obscure contact to have in this country and Debuchy obviously came because of Cabaye. I don't think it's difficult to sell us as a stepping stone club, given that we're probably one of the biggest clubs around in that category (punching below our weight) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30611 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Surely whether the manager is likely to select them will have a bearing on whether they'll be retained. A very short term view After waiting patiently for the 5 year plan to bear fruit, it's not unreasonable to expect the club to act decisively and address this now. This whole 'long term' 'better tomorrow' thing is bollocks. Because it won't be will it? Like when we sold Carroll we wouldn't panic buy a replacement. Then Ba. Then we sold Cabaye and wouldn't panic buy a replacement. The reality is the future never gets brighter because the following season something else happens and we write another half a season off whilst 'refusing to panic'. Give your head a shake. They will be retained on the right terms regardless of the manager if the club feel they are likely to get a fee for them in the future even that the manager doesn't want them. I clearly stated that whether the club are capable of appointing the right manager is debatable but waiting for the person they believe to be the right man is preferable to narrowing the pool down to include unsuitable candidates simply because they are available. Edited January 28, 2015 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 They will be retained on the right terms regardless of the manager if the club feel they are likely to get a fee for them in the even that the manager doesn't want them. I clearly stated that whether the club are capable of appointing the right manager is debatable but waiting for the person they believe to be the right man is preferable to narrowing the pool down to include unsuitable candidates simply because they are available. But we wrote half a season off waiting for Carroll's replacement. We did the same last season with Cabaye. To suggest we do it AGAIN waiting for the 'right' manager is just bollocks. As a one off it can be accepted but when you're constantly writing off half seasons it becomes an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Maybe nobody else was interested and we simply submitted offers to the respective clubs? Good contacts to me would suggest being able to sign good players that are off the proverbial radar. I seem to remember McClaren being integral in recommending Tiote so hardly an obscure contact to have in this country and Debuchy obviously came because of Cabaye. I don't think it's difficult to sell us as a stepping stone club, given that we're probably one of the biggest clubs around in that category (punching below our weight) If they were players no one else wanted then it's excellent scouting on Carr's part then, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 If they were players no one else wanted then it's excellent scouting on Carr's part then, isn't it? Cabaye was a coup. Bringing in Anita and Colback for his position since has hardly confirmed his Midas touch though. Tiote and Sissoko won't amount to much more than us. If the latter gets a big move he'll be benchwarming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30611 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 But we wrote half a season off waiting for Carroll's replacement. We did the same last season with Cabaye. To suggest we do it AGAIN waiting for the 'right' manager is just bollocks. As a one off it can be accepted but when you're constantly writing off half seasons it becomes an issue. I agree, which is why I've said several times that we could have appointed a better interim manager than Carver. Try to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I agree, which is why I've said several times that we could have appointed a better interim manager than Carver. Try to keep up. what is a good enough reason for a potential candidate not being available now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1245 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 To respond to your second point: Garde, Tuchel, De Boer have all operated under similar restrictions at the clubs where they were "successful". So there's clear evidence that they'd be at least used to that regime. That's no guarantee they'd do it again, but given the DoF role is becoming more and more popular it seems unlikely that modern, progressive head coaches like these would suddenly u-turn. The level of coach we've been linked with aren't out of our reach, they'd be interested in the project and aren't nearly as unrealistic as those you've mentioned for effect. Also, what is the benefit of meeting with Garde, if not to discuss the role seriously? Why not simply release vague sttement saying you've been in touch with some candidates? Just because we may have met with him with the intention of discussing the role seriously, doesn't mean the discussions came to anything. Just because he appeared to be a good fit, doesn't mean that when we laid out the constraints he would be working under, he didn't say thanks but no thanks. If that's was the case then the others (however well fitting they may look on paper) may in reality be just as impossible as those who I mentioned for effect. The point I was getting at was that trophyshy wasn't being irrational for saying that while we may have sounded these guys out, they may have all told us they weren't interested. If that's the case we either have to revise our ideas of what the job is or who would take it. If it's the latter than Carver might have been a reasonable choice. Personally I do believe that there is a realistic possibility of getting these guys for exactly the reasons you've said. But that doesn't mean it's not sensible to have concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30611 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 what is a good enough reason for a potential candidate not being available now? Loyalty to their current club in not wanting to leave mid-season? That's the kind of guy I'd want managing my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 So if that was the case you'd think there'd be an agreement put in place now then. Like Moyes when he took over at Man Utd? Deferring the search until the end of the season isn't an indication of having the right man lined up. Defending the indefensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30611 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I give up. The Fish had the right idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubSpinDoctor 0 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Good, because you're talking shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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