Dr Gloom 21911 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) long live satire. there may be millions around the world that support the end of freedom of expression but they will never win Edited January 8, 2015 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrossthepond 877 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 If we control our governments' behaviour then will Islam control its extremists' behaviour? I don't think either are possible as the distances between the masses and those with power or motivation are so great. So we're fucked. How are we meant to do that? Send round the Muslim whip and tell those crazy backbenchers to get in line? Islam isn't a monolith and it doesn't have a front office. Everyone always makes it sound like we've got some great private army of terrorists waiting by the phone for the latest slight to our religion so they can go out and kill people. The truth is that apart from certain well-organized and well-funded groups like the obvious al Qaeda and their spiritual successor ISIS, and Hezbullah, and Hamas if you want to lump them in although they're a bit different, the people who do these things are usually loonies or already damaged individuals who become susceptible to certain charismatic figures. As time passes, I feel confident that these brothers and whatever other kid they had with them attacking Charlie Hebdo will be discovered to be loners, slightly unbalanced people who at some point developed links (they're never members of terrorist organisations, they're just 'linked' to them) with some sort of extremist mullah or imam who himself was a front for a terrorist organisation. The same way, in other words, that so many of these crimes occur. The trigger happened to be radical Islam in this case. Transport these brothers to the American South and it might be the Klan or some other white supremacist group. Transport them to L.A. and it might be the Latin Kings. To Mexico and it might be a cartel. I don't have the answer to this problem. Certainly the rise of Islamism is the result of many factors that are not simple to deal with - inequality in the Muslim world generated by autocratic rulers, imbalanced societies, and a core-periphery relationship which they are on the wrong end of (all of which were caused by colonialism), a continuing inability to reconcile the secular and religious domains of society which is the result of the Western world's 400-or-so year head start on us (remember the European religious wars of the 17th century? That's pretty much where our society is right now, except the rest of the world has moved on and doesn't understand why we're still working those problems out), etc etc. i just know that terrorist incidents like this are always misrepresented as somehow being indicative of Islam (by right-wingers) or of part of Islam (by well-meaning liberals) when really they aren't, and are just indicative of the actions of crazy people who get access to weapons and a cause, the same as has been going on since Herostratus burned down the Temple of Artemis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 How are we meant to do that? Send round the Muslim whip and tell those crazy backbenchers to get in line? Islam isn't a monolith and it doesn't have a front office. Everyone always makes it sound like we've got some great private army of terrorists waiting by the phone for the latest slight to our religion so they can go out and kill people. The truth is that apart from certain well-organized and well-funded groups like the obvious al Qaeda and their spiritual successor ISIS, and Hezbullah, and Hamas if you want to lump them in although they're a bit different, the people who do these things are usually loonies or already damaged individuals who become susceptible to certain charismatic figures. As time passes, I feel confident that these brothers and whatever other kid they had with them attacking Charlie Hebdo will be discovered to be loners, slightly unbalanced people who at some point developed links (they're never members of terrorist organisations, they're just 'linked' to them) with some sort of extremist mullah or imam who himself was a front for a terrorist organisation. The same way, in other words, that so many of these crimes occur. The trigger happened to be radical Islam in this case. Transport these brothers to the American South and it might be the Klan or some other white supremacist group. Transport them to L.A. and it might be the Latin Kings. To Mexico and it might be a cartel. I don't have the answer to this problem. Certainly the rise of Islamism is the result of many factors that are not simple to deal with - inequality in the Muslim world generated by autocratic rulers, imbalanced societies, and a core-periphery relationship which they are on the wrong end of (all of which were caused by colonialism), a continuing inability to reconcile the secular and religious domains of society which is the result of the Western world's 400-or-so year head start on us (remember the European religious wars of the 17th century? That's pretty much where our society is right now, except the rest of the world has moved on and doesn't understand why we're still working those problems out), etc etc. i just know that terrorist incidents like this are always misrepresented as somehow being indicative of Islam (by right-wingers) or of part of Islam (by well-meaning liberals) when really they aren't, and are just indicative of the actions of crazy people who get access to weapons and a cause, the same as has been going on since Herostratus burned down the Temple of Artemis. Boils my piss tbh how certain Western leaders go on about Saudi Arabia in a positive light when the things that you talk about are rife there. Yet they're more than happy to denounce countries like Venezuela as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 From Sweden and Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4376 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I think the four hundred year head start would work if it was up to the 18th century but I think technology and how small the world has become renders it moot to a large extent. I've said before that our best hope is for Muslims to be "corrupted" by western freedoms and I'd like to think the modern world accelerates that process. Of course for every two steps forward, there's one step back due to US led fuckwittery. Edited January 8, 2015 by NJS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I think the four hundred year head start would work if it was up to the 18th century but I think technology and how small the world has become renders it moot to a large extent. I've said before that our best hope is for Muslims to be "corrupted" by western freedoms and I'd like to think the modern world accelerates that process. Of course for every two steps forward, there's one step back due to US led fuckwittery. I read something before about the local economy around where ISIS is based in Syria is funded by Westerners wanting things like energy drinks and chocolate. Actually here it is. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5298d716-758a-11e4-a1a9-00144feabdc0.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7083 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 How are we meant to do that? Send round the Muslim whip and tell those crazy backbenchers to get in line? Islam isn't a monolith and it doesn't have a front office. Everyone always makes it sound like we've got some great private army of terrorists waiting by the phone for the latest slight to our religion so they can go out and kill people. The truth is that apart from certain well-organized and well-funded groups like the obvious al Qaeda and their spiritual successor ISIS, and Hezbullah, and Hamas if you want to lump them in although they're a bit different, the people who do these things are usually loonies or already damaged individuals who become susceptible to certain charismatic figures. As time passes, I feel confident that these brothers and whatever other kid they had with them attacking Charlie Hebdo will be discovered to be loners, slightly unbalanced people who at some point developed links (they're never members of terrorist organisations, they're just 'linked' to them) with some sort of extremist mullah or imam who himself was a front for a terrorist organisation. The same way, in other words, that so many of these crimes occur. The trigger happened to be radical Islam in this case. Transport these brothers to the American South and it might be the Klan or some other white supremacist group. Transport them to L.A. and it might be the Latin Kings. To Mexico and it might be a cartel. I don't have the answer to this problem. Certainly the rise of Islamism is the result of many factors that are not simple to deal with - inequality in the Muslim world generated by autocratic rulers, imbalanced societies, and a core-periphery relationship which they are on the wrong end of (all of which were caused by colonialism), a continuing inability to reconcile the secular and religious domains of society which is the result of the Western world's 400-or-so year head start on us (remember the European religious wars of the 17th century? That's pretty much where our society is right now, except the rest of the world has moved on and doesn't understand why we're still working those problems out), etc etc. i just know that terrorist incidents like this are always misrepresented as somehow being indicative of Islam (by right-wingers) or of part of Islam (by well-meaning liberals) when really they aren't, and are just indicative of the actions of crazy people who get access to weapons and a cause, the same as has been going on since Herostratus burned down the Temple of Artemis. I believe I answered your question with my second sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 It's really cool how balanced and thoughtful responses are on here...A pleasure to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 If we control our governments' behaviour then will Islam control its extremists' behaviour? I don't think either are possible as the distances between the masses and those with power or motivation are so great. So we're fucked. Aye. I dont think there's even a proper solution now, damage limitation perhaps but this crap has gone on for too long now and dug itself deep into the ground. I still dont get why some people see this as 'Islam' versus the 'West' though. These groups have been killing muslims indiscriminately in many countries. They're not elected representatives of muslims. Pakistan for instance has now been using military force against them for years, and the fact we've often done it at the behest of the US has only fuelled the attacks we've had to deal with. Mind you, that little bit was a massive fuck up on our part, taking funds from one terrorist for promising to bomb another, cant end well can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Boils my piss tbh how certain Western leaders go on about Saudi Arabia in a positive light when the things that you talk about are rife there. Yet they're more than happy to denounce countries like Venezuela as an example. They've been at the centre of sectarian violence all across the middle east and the sub continent. Its not just Western leaders. Authorities here are quick to blame Indian or Israeli agencies when something goes wrong yet noone speaks about Saudi links to militant groups that are well documented. Because the Sheikhs are more than happy to get out the cheque book every now and then. Saudi Arabia right now is an absolute cancer, at least to this region of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 There are solutions but they aren't beneficial to the real power behind the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7083 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Aye. I dont think there's even a proper solution now, damage limitation perhaps but this crap has gone on for too long now and dug itself deep into the ground. I still dont get why some people see this as 'Islam' versus the 'West' though. These groups have been killing muslims indiscriminately in many countries. They're not elected representatives of muslims. Pakistan for instance has now been using military force against them for years, and the fact we've often done it at the behest of the US has only fuelled the attacks we've had to deal with. Mind you, that little bit was a massive fuck up on our part, taking funds from one terrorist for promising to bomb another, cant end well can it? These nut jobs do it in the name of, or perhaps using the excuse of Allah and the subsequent media exposure undoubtedly constitutes a major percentage of anything many westerners ever hear about Islam. Integration and education remain poor for a collection of reasons, whereas media output is phenomenal and almost unavoidable. If I didn't follow football, the only thing I might know about Alan Pardew is that he headbutted someone. If I didn't think for myself I might believe that the USA and its allies simply want to improve life in the Middle East. Like the school shootings, the best way of preventing endless escalation, copycats, recriminations, revenge and entrenchment is to simply stop reporting these incidents...but that cat is well and truly out of the bag in our communication age. There is no stopping the flow of information, there is only the filter in your mind. As an aside, does Islam allow room for evolution? I'm not baiting you, just the very first (English) muslim people I ever met were adamant Allah planted dinosaur fossils to test their faith - I wondered if this was just their personal view or is common teaching. Edited January 8, 2015 by trophyshy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17238 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/noone-murdered-because-of-this-image-onion-article-takes-on-grim-new-relevance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4156 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 These nut jobs do it in the name of, or perhaps using the excuse of Allah and the subsequent media exposure undoubtedly constitutes a major percentage of anything many westerners ever hear about Islam. Integration and education remain poor for a collection of reasons, whereas media output is phenomenal and almost unavoidable. If I didn't follow football, the only thing I might know about Alan Pardew is that he headbutted someone. If I didn't think for myself I might believe that the USA and its allies simply want to improve life in the Middle East. Like the school shootings, the best way of preventing endless escalation, copycats, recriminations, revenge and entrenchment is to simply stop reporting these incidents...but that cat is well and truly out of the bag in our communication age. There is no stopping the flow of information, there is only the filter in your mind. As an aside, does Islam allow room for evolution? I'm not baiting you, just the very first (English) muslim people I ever met were adamant Allah planted dinosaur fossils to test their faith - I wondered if this was just their personal view or is common teaching. It stems out of the common misconception that evolution means we were once monkeys. Get past that and there are verses in the Quran that actually point towards evolution. As far as the majority of scholars or teaching goes though, aye, most consider it outright scandalous. So Im not surprised you met this view. Delving into science or how the Quran interacts with it is not really encouraged. Which is still no excuse for people not doing some research for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 20110 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Boils my piss tbh how certain Western leaders go on about Saudi Arabia in a positive light when the things that you talk about are rife there. Yet they're more than happy to denounce countries like Venezuela as an example. Aye, its fucking laughable how they can do what they can about ISIS, yet bum the Saudis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21911 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 They're alreet because they control the oil market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedfernMag 0 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) I still dont get why some people see this as 'Islam' versus the 'West' though. These groups have been killing muslims indiscriminately in many countries. They're not elected representatives of muslims. A salient point that needs reiterating. Kenan Malik's latest blog piece is well worth a read: There are hudreds of thousands, within Muslim communities in the West, and within Muslim-majority countries across the world, challenging religious-based reactionary ideas and policies and institutions; writers, cartoonists, political activists, daily putting their lives on the line in facing down blasphemy laws, standing up for equal rights and fighting for democratic freedoms; people like Pakistani cartoonist Sabir Nazar, the Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen, exiled to India after death threats, or the Iranian blogger Soheil Arabi, sentenced to death last year for ‘insulting the Prophet’. What happened in the Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris was viscerally shocking; but in the non-Western world, those who stand up for their rights face such threats every day. Link to rest of the article here Edited January 9, 2015 by RedfernMag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's kicking off. Helicopters all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 20110 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Car chase and the lot. Hope they get the bastards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 20110 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Unconfirmed they have hostages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 FFS isn't the whole point of Jihad that they die carrying this shit out? Why are they trying to get away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21911 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Westernised jihadists. They've probably got nice clothes and watches too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 20110 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Apparently more fatalities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42356 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 They'll be watching their own police chase on their iPads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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