Terrorism

[The Fish 10857]

Nearly laughed out loud reading Chez's comment about hundreds of people dying at the hands of terrorists in the last few months. That figure is actually hundreds of thousands and last few decades actually. But then I realised he means Europe only. Which brought me to this:

 

 

 

Everytime sometime like this happens you hope for once that the importance of human lives will not be have to be weighed against each other again. Its hopeless though. And that perhaps is at the very heart of what is wrong with us today.

Is it any shock that people on the other side of the planet aren't as affected by tragic loss of life as they would be if it happened on their doorstep or to their allies? I'm not sure how many tears were shed in Tehran for the victims of MH17, or Haiti Earthquake etc. It's not right, but it's reality.

[ewerk 30616]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an "Intelligence" benefit to allowing such individuals operate normally, while having them under surveillance. The issue is surely the cell structure terrorists use. Following 1 guy may be useful for bringing down that cell (or even getting information on high-priority targets), but there could be another cell operating in the same city that aren't under the same level of scrutiny.

 

Well of course, from watching 24, I know there is a benefit to that but I would find it quite odd if we were letting people just stroll back into the country completely unchecked and unmonitored.

[The Fish 10857]

 

I'm not so sure, an IS fighter arrested in France stated that there was a specific reason behind the attacks on Europe, "they just want the [coalition] airstrikes to stop."

 

That's what the fighter said, but is that the truth or just the line he's been fed? Wasn't there a contradictory report from a Journalist who had been kidnapped and ransomed?

[The Fish 10857]

 

Well of course, from watching 24, I know there is a benefit to that but I would find it quite odd if we were letting people just stroll back into the country completely unchecked and unmonitored.

 

I got my training from Johnny English.

 

Edit - Mate of mine is working on Johnny English 3, by the way. So... look forward to that.

Edited March 23, 2016 by The Fish

[Renton 21627]

 

Well of course, from watching 24, I know there is a benefit to that but I would find it quite odd if we were letting people just stroll back into the country completely unchecked and unmonitored.

Yes, this was mentioned in the programme. But monitoring individuals is extremely high risk.

[aimaad22 4156]

In a sense you're right that there is double standards at play. But frankly, what Europe cares for is the security of Europe first and foremost. I'm sure Pakistan is most concerned with the security of Pakistan.

 

We're not a Muslim continent but the biggest threat to our security and, more importantly imo, freedoms, comes from an imported version of Islam. What do you expect us to do, wave our hands in the air and say that's okay because there are much worse things happening elsewhere?

 

Is it any shock that people on the other side of the planet aren't as affected by tragic loss of life as they would be if it happened on their doorstep or to their allies? I'm not sure how many tears were shed in Tehran for the victims of MH17, or Haiti Earthquake etc. It's not right, but it's reality.

 

Its not about sympathy. I think people pretty much everywhere are sick of condolences and empty statements.

 

The same foreign policy decisions that have caused havoc in Aghanistan, Iraq, Syria and what not etc since 9/11 are now creeping up into Europe. So its takes a few hundred deaths in its own backyard for Europe to start questioning what has gone wrong. It kind of plays into the terrorist rhetoric of 'hitting back' at the west that is so often used for recruiting.

 

A week or so there was a US drone strike in Somalia that killed a 150. 150. Noone batted an eyelid. Alleged terrorists apparently. So will some Somali have to raise hell in the US, God forbid, for someone to take notice of whats been going on there?

 

Its about owning up to our decisions, our foreign policy. Not sympathy. Blame Islam all you like, see if it makes a difference.

 

Believe me, whats happened in Pakistan since 9/11 is a mini version of the debate I see unfolding in Europe. Most people just wanted to blame the mullahs, bomb them and be rid of them. There have been tons of military operations. Waziristan and other areas bordering Afghanistan have been bombed to hell and back. It doesnt really work. Its not the way people are built. We have been forced into admitting that our involvement in the Soviet War and subsequently the Bush wars has gotten us into some deep shit. There's still a combination of military operations, uneasy negotiations and constant tension along the Afghan border. Things have gotten marginally better, only marginally.

[aimaad22 4156]

 

Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other "allies".

 

Yes, and the question of how they got hold of some pretty neat American equipment in Iraq too. Iraq. Dont forget Iraq ffs.

 

God knows what the Saudis are brewing in Yemen now and what that will do 10 years from now. But they continue to be key allies. Shambles.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

I'm not sure I'd advocate something as depressing as a European Guantanamo camp but more draconian measures are clearly required because this kind of attack is happening too frequently. The terrorists are well resourced and clearly have sophisticated encryption capabilities on their mobile devices. These are people the inteligence agencies were following and yet it was still allowed to happen. It pains me to say it but I agree that a crack down on civilians liberties is required until we've got this problem under control.

 

Renton is absolutely right - just because there are other terrorist atrocities occurring elsewhere around the world doesn't hide the fact that radicalised Islamist jihadis pose the biggest threat to European security currently.

[The Fish 10857]

 

 

Its not about sympathy. I think people pretty much everywhere are sick of condolences and empty statements.

 

The same foreign policy decisions that have caused havoc in Aghanistan, Iraq, Syria and what not etc since 9/11 are now creeping up into Europe. So its takes a few hundred deaths in its own backyard for Europe to start questioning what has gone wrong. It kind of plays into the terrorist rhetoric of 'hitting back' at the west that is so often used for recruiting.

 

A week or so there was a US drone strike in Somalia that killed a 150. 150. Noone batted an eyelid. Alleged terrorists apparently. So will some Somali have to raise hell in the US, God forbid, for someone to take notice of whats been going on there?

 

Its about owning up to our decisions, our foreign policy. Not sympathy. Blame Islam all you like, see if it makes a difference.

 

Believe me, whats happened in Pakistan since 9/11 is a mini version of the debate I see unfolding in Europe. Most people just wanted to blame the mullahs, bomb them and be rid of them. There have been tons of military operations. Waziristan and other areas bordering Afghanistan have been bombed to hell and back. It doesnt really work. Its not the way people are built. We have been forced into admitting that our involvement in the Soviet War and subsequently the Bush wars has gotten us into some deep shit. There's still a combination of military operations, uneasy negotiations and constant tension along the Afghan border. Things have gotten marginally better, only marginally.

 

Don't think anybody is blaming Islam.

 

I agree that bombing is generally a worthless exercise, but how do you negotiate with a death cult? IS aren't bothered by sanctions or legislation, their structure means they're not going to have a moderate leader that the outside world can deal with. Even if there was someone willing to open discussions with the West, they'd be overthrown by someone else who feels they're too soft.

 

Pumping aid and resources into regions under threat is a great and noble thing, but too much of that doesn't get to the people who need it.

 

It's a massively complex issue before you begin to look at the domestic power plays made off the back of atrocities, or what pressure the Military Industrial complex applies, or, or, or, or...

 

Doing nothing is not an option, but I don't believe the West can solve this with bombs or bargaining. I think this issue has to be resolved by people that the locals will trust. But that's not likely, is it?

[ewerk 30616]

What sort of popular support do IS have in the areas they control?

[Renton 21627]

 

 

Its not about sympathy. I think people pretty much everywhere are sick of condolences and empty statements.

 

The same foreign policy decisions that have caused havoc in Aghanistan, Iraq, Syria and what not etc since 9/11 are now creeping up into Europe. So its takes a few hundred deaths in its own backyard for Europe to start questioning what has gone wrong. It kind of plays into the terrorist rhetoric of 'hitting back' at the west that is so often used for recruiting.

 

A week or so there was a US drone strike in Somalia that killed a 150. 150. Noone batted an eyelid. Alleged terrorists apparently. So will some Somali have to raise hell in the US, God forbid, for someone to take notice of whats been going on there?

 

Its about owning up to our decisions, our foreign policy. Not sympathy. Blame Islam all you like, see if it makes a difference.

 

Believe me, whats happened in Pakistan since 9/11 is a mini version of the debate I see unfolding in Europe. Most people just wanted to blame the mullahs, bomb them and be rid of them. There have been tons of military operations. Waziristan and other areas bordering Afghanistan have been bombed to hell and back. It doesnt really work. Its not the way people are built. We have been forced into admitting that our involvement in the Soviet War and subsequently the Bush wars has gotten us into some deep shit. There's still a combination of military operations, uneasy negotiations and constant tension along the Afghan border. Things have gotten marginally better, only marginally.

Ahh, Belgium, that well known oppressor of the middle east....

 

I'll ask you a question. Is the problems Belgium is facing a consequence of their present foreign policy, or a consequence of their colonial past and links to France which has led to a very high proportion of Muslims living there, a (small I'm sure) proportion of which are intent on destroying the country?

 

What can Belgium do now?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Renton

[Kid Dynamite 7030]

Sorry to go all Parky but....

 

Sporadic attacks like this have a silver lining for the powers that be. It won't be long before ID cards, finger print scanners, CCTV on every corner is a reality. 10 years ago there would have been hell on, now a lot of people would gladly accept it in the name of 'national security'. Of course once we go full on 1984 real freedom is gone. It's nigh on there already. Everything's paid for by card or Apple Pay, most people carry a tracking chip in their phone, cookies track your online searches, porn preferences the lot. The FBI has already spat their dummy out about not being given free reign to just hack anyone's iPhone.

 

If we actively stop ISIS supporters coming into the country all of the above becomes a lot harder to get away with. It all sounds like tin foil hat stuff but it's all happening day by day. The government just decided to cut tax for big business and is helping fund it by taking money off disabled people Leaders have been assassinated for less

 

This world is fucked. Don't con yourselves this isn't all part of a bigger picture.

[Alex 35083]

What a crock of shit

[ChezGiven 0]

Are we currently letting known IS fighters roam the streets?

Yes the people who blew up Brussels had clear linked to the Paris attacks and Isis and were known to authorities.

[ChezGiven 0]

Nearly laughed out loud reading Chez's comment about hundreds of people dying at the hands of terrorists in the last few months. That figure is actually hundreds of thousands and last few decades actually. But then I realised he means Europe only. Which brought me to this:

 

 

 

Everytime sometime like this happens you hope for once that the importance of human lives will not be have to be weighed against each other again. Its hopeless though. And that perhaps is at the very heart of what is wrong with us today.

 

 

I dont give that much of a shit about the security of other places other than those where i live and work. That's human nature. If i happened to find myself on a Turkish forum and the Ankara bombings were being discussed, i'd support similarly draconian security measures to be adopted there. I'd be happy for Pakistan to impose some draconian security measures too instead of it being a corrupt lawless zoo of humanity. I'd consistently apply it to whichever topic of conversation comes up.

 

Currently the conversation in Europe, in Brussels, where i sometimes work, in Paris where i live, is about a bunch of mindless cunts killing people. This time as its Belgium, the arguments about Iraq, the US, Syria and bombing campaigns cant be rolled out. So you might try the 'westerners only care about westerners' line but i think that in this case, it just makes you look a bit odious. I'm referring to European security as that's where my government is, I'm thinking about draconian security measures and drastic reductions in privacy - because what other choice do we have?

[Dr Gloom 21924]

all the evidence suggests these were planned attacks - they weren't rushed. they're sophisticated and co-ordinated - not easy to pull off. even if the attacks were brought forward in a response to the arrest of abdeslam, it still points to a much broader jihadi network than security agencies previously thought. and don't forget that this comes at a time when all the counter intelligence agencies across europe have been working together in the wake of paris - particularly in brussels. and with all of that, this has still occurred - that all suggests isis has entrenched itself in europe and has got to a level where it can strike almost with impunity.

 

and to pull this kind of thing off, you need a great deal of discipline - clearly encryption is being used for them to get away with it. this is the third city wide attack in europe in the last 15 months. we're at a stage now where serious questions need to be asked about resources for intelligence agencies. also, some difficult questions about civili liberties need to be addressed. more information needs to be shared but a lot of european countries are sensitive to privacy concerns. one big thing that isn't being shared is the passenger information record - this is basically information about who is getting on flights; who is coming into europe and where they're coming from. this doesn't exisit because of civili liberty campaigners protesting. sorry, but this has to change.

 

then there's the electronic surveillance. there's a lot of political resistance to this in europe but i can see that changing. the snowden revelations led to a backlash against electronic signals intelligence but i reckon it could be revisited again.

 

the shengen zone in particular also needs to be reviewed. it's an EU issue. the politicians need to seriously look a the free movement. Is it really a great European principle that needs to be upheld? I'd argue not at the minute.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[NJS 4386]

Latest reports are that the Paris attackers used burner phones rather than encryption.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

even then it points to a high degree of planning and co-ordination.

[Kid Dynamite 7030]

Well if its gona be the last thing you do before you're martyred you probably want to do it properly

[aimaad22 4156]

Ahh, Belgium, that well known oppressor of the middle east....

 

I'll ask you a question. Is the problems Belgium is facing a consequence of their present foreign policy, or a consequence of their colonial past and links to France which has led to a very high proportion of Muslims living there, a (small I'm sure) proportion of which are intent on destroying the country?

 

What can Belgium do now?

 

Oh dear. It was a general statement. I dont think the people who do this stuff are given history lessons. Its them against the west. Its the EU, its Europe. It has caused panic as you can see. Mission accomplished.

 

You can break down and analyze these incidents separately if you like. I dont see how anyone can see a solution to this without addressing the bigger picture.

 

 

 

I dont give that much of a shit about the security of other places other than those where i live and work. That's human nature. If i happened to find myself on a Turkish forum and the Ankara bombings were being discussed, i'd support similarly draconian security measures to be adopted there. I'd be happy for Pakistan to impose some draconian security measures too instead of it being a corrupt lawless zoo of humanity. I'd consistently apply it to whichever topic of conversation comes up.

 

Currently the conversation in Europe, in Brussels, where i sometimes work, in Paris where i live, is about a bunch of mindless cunts killing people. This time as its Belgium, the arguments about Iraq, the US, Syria and bombing campaigns cant be rolled out. So you might try the 'westerners only care about westerners' line but i think that in this case, it just makes you look a bit odious. I'm referring to European security as that's where my government is, I'm thinking about draconian security measures and drastic reductions in privacy - because what other choice do we have?

 

Very well. My comment was about finding a long term solution to the terror threat, not just specific to Brussels or Paris. And for me that goes way back down to where the trouble started.

 

Question, have you ever actually been to Pakistan? Iran? Syria? Before you lot and your friends destroyed it that is. I'll tell you one thing though, some of the things you come up with, I'd feel much safer sitting next to a draconian tribal warlord from Waziristan than you. You'd probably be wearing a suit or something, but apart from that I wouldnt be sure what the difference in level of 'civility' would be.

[Meenzer 15531]

Well if its gona be the last thing you do before you're martyred you probably want to do it properly

 

Might only get half a dozen virgins if you don't.

[aimaad22 4156]

Either way, we've been over all this before after the Paris attacks. Meh.

 

Politicians will continue to debate and repeat the same mistakes. Nothing really changes.

[Renton 21627]

You keep going on about a global long-term solution. What is this?

 

Honestly, everytime an atrocity by Muslim's happens in the west, you blame the west, regardless of which individuals were targeted or what country they're from. You're appeasing terrorism aimaad.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Renton

[aimaad22 4156]

Renton is right in a way of course. These people are cowardly psychopaths with no honour or shame. Not all attacks have to be because of whats happened in their region before. But there is a general trend.

 

We can huff and puff and stamp around to look busy and feel like there's something thats being done. Some good thats done so far. I just wish someone would look towards addressing the long term issue.

[aimaad22 4156]

You keep going on about a global long-term solution. What is this?

 

Honestly, everytime an atrocity by Muslim's happens in the west, you blame the west, regardless of which individuals were targeted or what country they're from. You're appeasing terrorism aimaad.

 

Its been mentioned countless times by myself on this forum, and other terrorist sympathizers across media. Point one is stop fucking about in other people's countries. Thats a general comment again before you bring up Belgium. That coupled with intelligence and other domestic security measures may bring about results in time. Otherwise the latter will just continue to be stop gaps.