Happy Face 29 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Ken said: How do you know that this concert was not purposefully selected for the demography that was in attendance? Unfortunately I think it probably had a lot to do with who was performing as much as the audience she cultivates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4369 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Alex said: Yeah, I'm pretty cynical about most things but I'm genuinely surprised this hasn't happened a lot more often in this country in recent years. I think I've said before that the thing that made me despair at the time was the second attempted tube attack a month after July the seventh - I really thought it was going to get "every other day". I think we reluctantly cope with occasional incidents as long as they're rare but anything beyond that would be almost unsurmountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34812 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Just now, NJS said: I think I've said before that the thing that made me despair at the time was the second attempted tube attack a month after July the seventh - I really thought it was going to get "every other day". I think we reluctantly cope with occasional incidents as long as they're rare but anything beyond that would be almost unsurmountable. It would have a horrible knock-on effect for race relations too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5173 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: I know Isis claimed responsibility but they always do. if turns out it's an Isis-inspired lone wolf, rather than a co-ordinated attack, there's not much that can be done to prevent copycat strikes without an even bigger crackdown on civil liberties. I think on balance the security forces have got things about right. This was the worst attack by far since 2005 and we have only seen a handful since then. If we suddenly see this sort thing happen every few weeks or months then things might change. Was thinking about this earlier - why don't we just stop naming them? We could stop noting their affiliation, their names, anything about them. If we do that, their political statement doesn't stand. Might even force them to pre-announce their intent somewhere that the police might be able to pick up on ahead of time. Probably all wishful thinking but I'm coming around to idea of simply making them anonymous nobodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Was thinking about this earlier - why don't we just stop naming them? We could stop noting their affiliation, their names, anything about them. If we do that, their political statement doesn't stand. Might even force them to pre-announce their intent somewhere that the police might be able to pick up on ahead of time. Probably all wishful thinking but I'm coming around to idea of simply making them anonymous nobodies. Not sure the state should be encouraged to "disappear" individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34812 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Yeah, I take the point and agree with the sentiment but, apart from being unrealistic with the 24 hour news, all encompassing social media etc., it also opens up a whole other can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 The media reporting it in the blandest terms and only briefly would be a great step in the right direction but you're right about social media; hadn't even considered that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/westandtogethermanchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5173 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Happy Face said: Not sure the state should be encouraged to "disappear" individuals. Um, they'd be "disappearing" themselves still wouldn't they? I'm not suggesting that the state kills them here, just that if they do it, we simply refuse to name them. Or is that still problematic? An alternative would be that we name them but give no airtime whatsoever to their motive. Or even give them an unrelated motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5173 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 12 minutes ago, Alex said: Yeah, I take the point and agree with the sentiment but, apart from being unrealistic with the 24 hour news, all encompassing social media etc., it also opens up a whole other can of worms. Aye, I concede it isn't realistic - not clear on what's wrong with it in principle though, if anyone wants to help me out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Um, they'd be "disappearing" themselves still wouldn't they? I'm not suggesting that the state kills them here, just that if they do it, we simply refuse to name them. Or is that still problematic? An alternative would be that we name them but give no airtime whatsoever to their motive. Or even give them an unrelated motive. We could give them anglophile names. That would solve it yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34812 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Aye, I concede it isn't realistic - not clear on what's wrong with it in principle though, if anyone wants to help me out? Well I suppose the issues are that with reporting restrictions then there is a potential lack of transparency and accountability for the whole criminal justice system. This could be open to abuse down the line even if it were implemented for all the right reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Geoff Smedley Poppington - Cook of 10, Bridlington Gardens calls for Jihad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5173 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Alex said: Well I suppose the issues are that with reporting restrictions then there is a potential lack of transparency and accountability for the whole criminal justice system. This could be open to abuse down the line even if it were implemented for all the right reasons. I suppose so... I dunno, I kind of feel as though something has to give in terms of how we handle this because honestly, we don't appear to be doing anything other than attempting to respond and increasing surveillance powers. There needs to be an active strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5173 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 This is from a columnist for the Telegraph... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Fucking internment camps. Is she looking to outdo that apprentice cunt? Quote They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. 99.9% of us will thankfully NEVER be a victim of terrorism. Yet we rush to ensure that 100% ARE victims of the loss of liberty, that the terrorism achieves it's very goal. Deciding/debating policy 17 hours after the biggest terror attack in over a decade isn't sensible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6986 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 So it was a 22 year old British lad whose parents are from Libya This whole 'it's up to Muslims to root out their own terrorists' shite is getting silly mind. Do people honestly think he kissed his Mam goodbye yesterday and said 'I'm off to blow up some kids'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5173 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Deciding/debating policy 17 hours after the biggest terror attack in over a decade isn't sensible. Agreed. Have been somewhat impressed by this statement from Paul Ryan of all people. Far better than Trump's equivalent: The whole House of Representatives extends its condolences to the families of the victims. Our prayers are especially with those who are still searching for their children. I don’t know – maybe it’s because I am a father of teenagers, but that is the part that keeps me coming back to this. I mean, think about the kids who had this date on their calendar circled. Think about the kids who got their parents to agree to take them to the concert. Or maybe it was a birthday present, or maybe it was a surprise. Or think about the kids who went to the concert with their friends on the agreement that they would get together and meet their parents outside right after it. Those are the kinds of conversations that go on in families with teenagers. And then all those moms and dads waiting outside when disaster struck – think about that for a second. Many rushing in, hoping to God and fearing the worst. To deliberately target innocent children is cowardice in its most heinous form. So we should not be surprised that Isis has claimed responsibility for this attack. But we will never bow or bend to radical Islamic terror. In Manchester, we have seen hotels taking in survivors. We have seen local residents offering beds to those who are stranded. We have seen taxi cabs driving back and forth through the night, offering free rides to bring people to safety. And as we speak, people on social media are reaching out to connect families with their loved ones. Terror is a threat that we all face together – and with our might, and with our humanity too. In that spirit, I want to express solidarity of the whole House of Representatives to prime minister May and her government. We stand ready to help in any way we can. Because freedom, compassion, and peace will always prevail over violence and hate. Edited May 23, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Mixed results. Good read. UK Muslims. ''The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.'' https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey Ch4 one with different results. http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/c4-survey-and-documentary-reveals-what-british-muslims-really-think http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vast-majority-of-british-muslims-do-not-sympathise-with-suicide-bombers-survey-shows-a6977826.html Edited May 23, 2017 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: So it was a 22 year old British lad whose parents are from Libya This whole 'it's up to Muslims to root out their own terrorists' shite is getting silly mind. Do people honestly think he kissed his Mam goodbye yesterday and said 'I'm off to blow up some kids'. Do you think he has held extreme views strong enough that he's prepared to die for them and has never expressed them to anybody before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 What percentage of Muslims to you expect he shared them with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30236 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Park Life said: Mixed results. Good read. UK Muslims. ''The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.'' https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey Ch4 one with different results. http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/c4-survey-and-documentary-reveals-what-british-muslims-really-think http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vast-majority-of-british-muslims-do-not-sympathise-with-suicide-bombers-survey-shows-a6977826.html It's the same poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Gatestone Inst and ch4 are different ones. G institute is a right wing think tank. Bit more of a write up in the Indy for Gumbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, adios said: What percentage of Muslims to you expect he shared them with? Fuck off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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