Terrorism

[Alex 35083]

 

Ken getting his stats off the back of a Malbec bottle

 

Shiraz, muthafucka

[Dr Gloom 21924]

The Wahhabi sect are a direct threat to Western civilisation/democracy. Is it known how many of them have migrated to Europe?

But it is much more deep rooted than that. You can have young Muslims born and brought up in a in a normal middle class family in any nominated western country but get on the net and start reading extremist propaganda and turn in an instant. It has happened here, it has/will happen in Europe many times over.

 

the homegrown terrorist threat is a much more genuine one to the UK, which partially reflects our miserly approach to accepting syrian refugees. it's also much harder to smuggle ak47s etc into the UK than it is to places in continental europe.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Ken 119]

All these things are empowering far right-wing political parties as you know. Even extreme far-right wing ideology. Donald Trump is loving this. This is breeding mayhem externally and internally. Such is life, eh...

[The Fish 10857]

even then it points to a high degree of planning and co-ordination.

Or watching the first few seasons of The Wire.

[Renton 21627]

Really depressing how many of the UK jihadists were/are from settled middle class families, third generation. We've had medical students and doctors in bomb plots or going off to Syria. There is a clear problem with salafism that has been ignored too long by well meaning people.

[aimaad22 4156]

 

Have you been to Brussels or Paris? If some of the things i come up with are troubling you then how about we re-visit everything you said after Paris because the arguments you used then are no longer going to hold water. You cant blame Belgium for what happened in the middle east.

 

Now i see you are saying these people are too thick to distinguish between Belgium and France's foreign policy and dont know their history and its just one fight against the west / eu. Then on the other hand, as you laid out in detail after Paris, they are acting out of a specific moral reaction to the actions of these countries and their oppression through history. But but but you just said they know nothing about history?

 

These inconsistencies make you sound like an apologist.

 

No I've never been to Europe. Which is why I've never issued blanket statements on the general populace.I comment on foreign policy, which is plain for everyone to see.

 

I dont blame Belgium for Syria etc. I think I made it clear on the France attacks too that Im talking about a general solution for this mess. The constant rhetoric used to recruit these people is hatred for the West. US and its allies, England and its allies, NATO etc etc. Combine this for a complete lack of respect for human life then I dont know why its surprising that softer targets can sometimes get hit. It has ruffled feathers throughout Europe, caused panic throughout Europe. And the reaction will only help them gain more followers. You can call me an appeaser or a sympathizer. I couldnt care less. I dont think there's a solution for this without getting into the minds of these people.

 

You dont think that post 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq and the Arab spring and everything since then there has been a significant increase in militant activity in these regions and attacks on western soil? It obviously doesnt mean that each and every attack has to be directly linked to that country's involvement in this. It is also quite obvious that the people who do this are mentally unstable barbarians so it shouldnt be a surprise if they end up blowing up things for fun once they're on the loose. It really shouldnt. Did you think that after Paris they would just pack up their bags say "Hey we've avenged Syrian airstrikes now, lets head off home" and wind up the organisation? How can you believe that organisations such as these wont take a chance to cause havoc when they can. But they do have an origin, a source of funding and recruiting tactics which is what should be targeted if you want to get rid of them for good. I dont know whether you just dont agree with this or are on a wind up interpreting everything so literally.

 

Its also not saying that other measures such as improved intelligence or better domestic security shouldnt be adopted. Im just saying they might not be enough.

 

 

it's incredibly bad taste to be have a pop at western foreign policy in the immediate aftermath of an event like this. we all know it is flawed and the majority on here accept it is frequently misguided.

 

but the foreign policy atrocities committed by the US - or UK for that matter - have little to do with what happened in Brussels. there are myriad issues at play here, but one undeniable one is europe is dealing with a fascist death cult that wants to destroy everything european values stand for. and europe has to do something about it as long as it's happening within european territory.

 

Why is it bad taste to have a pop at foreign policy if it has absolutely nothing to do with Brussels?

 

I agree there are a myriad of issues here. I pray however so your governments decide to deal with this is effective, for once. Most of all I wish innocent people would stop paying for the mistakes of the handful that run the show. As for ISIS and their lot, they're hell bound barbarians, there's no debating that. The question is what the rest of the world can do to tackle them. If it brings up some uncomfortable questions so be it I say.

 

On a side note, I really dont blame the West solely for the whole militancy mess. The constant wars are a major factor of course but not the only one.Civil war, lack of education, corruption and floundering economies, high unemployment etc etc make it so much easier for young men to be recruited into the likes of ISIS. These are all well documented factors and ones only local governments are to blame for. Not to mention climate change

[The Fish 10857]

 

I agree there are a myriad of issues here. I pray however so your governments decide to deal with this is effective, for once. Most of all I wish innocent people would stop paying for the mistakes of the handful that run the show. As for ISIS and their lot, they're hell bound barbarians, there's no debating that. The question is what the rest of the world can do to tackle them. If it brings up some uncomfortable questions so be it I say.

 

On a side note, I really dont blame the West solely for the whole militancy mess. The constant wars are a major factor of course but not the only one.Civil war, lack of education, corruption and floundering economies, high unemployment etc etc make it so much easier for young men to be recruited into the likes of ISIS. These are all well documented factors and ones only local governments are to blame for. Not to mention climate change

 

Well, apart from the fact there's no Hell, or Heaven or anything else found in fairytales either.

 

Re: your last paragraph, I agree, those are the issues that need dealing with, but those aren't issues the West can deal with. It's the responsibility of the local governments. So despite you saying it's up to the Rest of the World to tackle them, I'd say it's not on us at all. I also don't think there's the will to affect change from local governments.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

 

No I've never been to Europe. Which is why I've never issued blanket statements on the general populace.I comment on foreign policy, which is plain for everyone to see.

 

I dont blame Belgium for Syria etc. I think I made it clear on the France attacks too that Im talking about a general solution for this mess. The constant rhetoric used to recruit these people is hatred for the West. US and its allies, England and its allies, NATO etc etc. Combine this for a complete lack of respect for human life then I dont know why its surprising that softer targets can sometimes get hit. It has ruffled feathers throughout Europe, caused panic throughout Europe. And the reaction will only help them gain more followers. You can call me an appeaser or a sympathizer. I couldnt care less. I dont think there's a solution for this without getting into the minds of these people.

 

You dont think that post 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq and the Arab spring and everything since then there has been a significant increase in militant activity in these regions and attacks on western soil? It obviously doesnt mean that each and every attack has to be directly linked to that country's involvement in this. It is also quite obvious that the people who do this are mentally unstable barbarians so it shouldnt be a surprise if they end up blowing up things for fun once they're on the loose. It really shouldnt. Did you think that after Paris they would just pack up their bags say "Hey we've avenged Syrian airstrikes now, lets head off home" and wind up the organisation? How can you believe that organisations such as these wont take a chance to cause havoc when they can. But they do have an origin, a source of funding and recruiting tactics which is what should be targeted if you want to get rid of them for good. I dont know whether you just dont agree with this or are on a wind up interpreting everything so literally.

 

Its also not saying that other measures such as improved intelligence or better domestic security shouldnt be adopted. Im just saying they might not be enough.

 

 

Why is it bad taste to have a pop at foreign policy if it has absolutely nothing to do with Brussels?

 

I agree there are a myriad of issues here. I pray however so your governments decide to deal with this is effective, for once. Most of all I wish innocent people would stop paying for the mistakes of the handful that run the show. As for ISIS and their lot, they're hell bound barbarians, there's no debating that. The question is what the rest of the world can do to tackle them. If it brings up some uncomfortable questions so be it I say.

 

On a side note, I really dont blame the West solely for the whole militancy mess. The constant wars are a major factor of course but not the only one.Civil war, lack of education, corruption and floundering economies, high unemployment etc etc make it so much easier for young men to be recruited into the likes of ISIS. These are all well documented factors and ones only local governments are to blame for. Not to mention climate change

 

because it's completely insensitive. your first reaction seems to be to condemn the entire western civilisation, including belgium, for sickening attacks on innocent people who had fuck all to do with any of the conflicts in the middle east you talk of.

 

the fact thee belgian government weren't involved either exposes the motives of these terrorists. these are not revenge attacks - they're driven by a hatred of everything the west stands for. i think we need to separate that from some of the hideous things other western powers have done in the middle east. there are two separate issues at play here. and they're not always as interconnected as you suggest.

[Billy Whitehurst 895]

Or watching the first few seasons of The Wire.

I think we can all agree that Avon Barksdale is complicit in all of this.

[ewerk 30611]

Bullshit. Stringer was the brains.

[aimaad22 4156]

 

Well, apart from the fact there's no Hell, or Heaven or anything else found in fairytales either.

 

Re: your last paragraph, I agree, those are the issues that need dealing with, but those aren't issues the West can deal with. It's the responsibility of the local governments. So despite you saying it's up to the Rest of the World to tackle them, I'd say it's not on us at all. I also don't think there's the will to affect change from local governments.

 

I actually didnt say that, I said local governments are to blame for them. Quite obviously.

 

 

because it's completely insensitive. your first reaction seems to be to condemn the entire western civilisation, including belgium, for sickening attacks on innocent people who had fuck all to do with any of the conflicts in the middle east you talk of.

 

the fact thee belgian government weren't involved either exposes the motives of these terrorists. these are not revenge attacks - they're driven by a hatred of everything the west stands for. i think we need to separate that from some of the hideous things other western powers have done in the middle east. there are two separate issues at play here. and they're not always as interconnected as you suggest.

 

You'll forgive me for not being bothered about accusations of insensitivity here after I have been explained about in length why its okay for us not to be bothered about people dying hundreds of miles away

[ChezGiven 0]

http://gu.com/p/4hnpk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

They should have been detained, known links to Paris, warned by Turkey, powerless under current law. It's provocative and reactionary to say what I said yesterday but I am struggling to find another way forward that makes sense.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Haven't been following the thread, has aimaad turned to extremism then?

[Renton 21627]

 

I actually didnt say that, I said local governments are to blame for them. Quite obviously.

 

 

You'll forgive me for not being bothered about accusations of insensitivity here after I have been explained about in length why its okay for us not to be bothered about people dying hundreds of miles away

But what you're doing is, immediately following an atrocity, immediately pinning the blame of that atrocity on the government of the country, rather than the terrorists.

 

So the equivalent thing for us to do, following a drone attack in Yemen, would be to blame that on Yemen. [That's before we even discuss the moral equivalence of the situations which you know I don't accept].

 

You're yet to give an even vague answer to what we should do about this yet btw.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

Every country should ramp up its covert video surveillance and all transport hubs should have this

[aimaad22 4156]

Except that Yemen hasnt really been waging any wars in US/UK/Saudia or casually dropping bombs there for entertainment

 

Im trying to get at why the terrorist committed the atrocity that they did. Good heavens I know looking past the whole muslims are evil rhetoric is considered automatically as sympathetic with terrorists but this is ridiculous Keep putting words in my mouth. Dont really care.

 

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

Read this please. The idea that you have to explain yourself because you're muslim. Like its some sort of cult

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

I can see you want me to spell out everything:

1. Stop all wars in the middle east etc. Its getting pretty old and people that die thousands of miles away are of slight more consequence to their loved ones, also a lot closer in km terms

2. Might warrant having a look at what key allies like Saudi Arabia are brewing for joining in their wars and arming them

3. Improved domestic measures such as intelligence. Its already being said that yesterdays bombers were wanted.

 

In very broad terms. Cant really comment on the whole privacy versus surveillance debate. My point the whole while has been that it'll be of little consequence without the first 2 measures.

[Rayvin 5223]

But what you're doing is, immediately following an atrocity, immediately pinning the blame of that atrocity on the government of the country, rather than the terrorists.

So the equivalent thing for us to do, following a drone attack in Yemen, would be to blame that on Yemen. [That's before we even discuss the moral equivalence of the situations which you know I don't accept].

You're yet to give an even vague answer to what we should do about this yet btw.

 

He mentioned identifying those funding ISIS and sorting it from there. It's not a bad suggestion to be honest, except it'll lead us to Saudi Arabia and another international incident.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Except that Yemen hasnt really been waging any wars in US/UK/Saudia or casually dropping bombs there for entertainment

 

Im trying to get at why the terrorist committed the atrocity that they did. Good heavens I know looking past the whole muslims are evil rhetoric is considered automatically as sympathetic with terrorists but this is ridiculous Keep putting words in my mouth. Dont really care.

 

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

Read this please. The idea that you have to explain yourself because you're muslim. Like its some sort of cult

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

I can see you want me to spell out everything:

1. Stop all wars in the middle east etc. Its getting pretty old and people that die thousands of miles away are of slight more consequence to their loved ones, also a lot closer in km terms

2. Might warrant having a look at what key allies like Saudi Arabia are brewing for joining in their wars and arming them

3. Improved domestic measures such as intelligence. Its already being said that yesterdays bombers were wanted.

 

In very broad terms. Cant really comment on the whole privacy versus surveillance debate. My point the whole while has been that it'll be of little consequence without the first 2 measures.

So an end to western backed wars in the Middle East combined with a change in allegiance with the Saudis is key to preventing further Islamic state terrorist attacks on European soil?

 

Sorry but that's way too simplistic. These people are living amongst us here in Europe and their want to destroy themselves, literally, in order to kill as many innocent westerners as possible. That is because they've been brainwashed to hate everything we stand for.

[Renton 21627]

Except that Yemen hasnt really been waging any wars in US/UK/Saudia or casually dropping bombs there for entertainment

 

Im trying to get at why the terrorist committed the atrocity that they did. Good heavens I know looking past the whole muslims are evil rhetoric is considered automatically as sympathetic with terrorists but this is ridiculous Keep putting words in my mouth. Dont really care.

 

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

Read this please. The idea that you have to explain yourself because you're muslim. Like its some sort of cult

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

I can see you want me to spell out everything:

1. Stop all wars in the middle east etc. Its getting pretty old and people that die thousands of miles away are of slight more consequence to their loved ones, also a lot closer in km terms

2. Might warrant having a look at what key allies like Saudi Arabia are brewing for joining in their wars and arming them

3. Improved domestic measures such as intelligence. Its already being said that yesterdays bombers were wanted.

 

In very broad terms. Cant really comment on the whole privacy versus surveillance debate. My point the whole while has been that it'll be of little consequence without the first 2 measures.

UK are casually dropping bombs for entertainment? Grow up man. As for your suggestions, do you honestly think it's that simple? The recent wars in the middle east have been utterly disastrous, but do you really think any government in the west wants continued involvement? I seriously doubt they do but there is no exit strategy now. I suppose we can just leave IS to establish their caliphate if you think that will bring peace.

 

As for Saudi, well quite. The seat of wahhabism and breeding ground of salifism. Ideological and political elements of Islam, this is the underlying problem we are facing here, at least as much as western foreign policy. So no, I'm not generalising to all muslims here but we need to ask ourselves in Europe why well educated, third generation muslims are turning against their countries on such a scale. Fuck knows what the answer is but we'll get nowhere if we don't ask the questions.

[Ken 119]

The EU will have to consider setting up a centralised counter-terrorism body, a police/security force, and intelligence service. So those with perceived weaknesses in these areas like Belgium and Sweden can come under the one umbrella of those who are strong in these areas ie. Britain, Germany and France.

 

Building internment camps doesn't sound like such a bad idea now either.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Ken

[Ken 119]

Not sure how a 16 year old girl has access to such a large amount of cash but what is most concerning is that she is a third-generation Australian;

 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/sydney-schoolgirl-16-wired-is-fighter-thousands-of-dollars-court-hears/news-story/c41dcb609fed37351a71cdfc9de50c50

[aimaad22 4156]

For the tenth time, I've never said that ceasing military operations alone will be enough. Im saying if its excluded other things wont work.

 

Here's what a well researched terrorist sympathizer/appeaser has said on ISIS' motives

http://www.thenation.com/article/heres-what-a-man-who-studied-every-suicide-attack-in-the-world-says-about-isiss-motives/

[Renton 21627]

For the tenth time, I've never said that ceasing military operations alone will be enough. Im saying if its excluded other things wont work.

 

Here's what a well researched terrorist sympathizer/appeaser has said on ISIS' motives

http://www.thenation.com/article/heres-what-a-man-who-studied-every-suicide-attack-in-the-world-says-about-isiss-motives/

So out of interest, without playing the blame game if the past, what do you think the West should do about Syria and Iraq now? Leave it to its own devices?

[aimaad22 4156]

What can you do after blowing something to bits? I suppose the first thought would resolving not to break another thing to bits. I see from the US/UK aided Saudi strikes on Yemen that the lesson has definitely not been learnt.

 

Leaving them to their own devices, interesting you say that. Because apparently isnt that how ISIS got a lot of their arms? Haphazard US withdrawal, abandoned bases and misplaced supply drops? Look at Afghanistan right now. The Taliban are as strong as ever. Stronger maybe. You have to wonder exactly what US and allied forces have been doing there for so long. Trillions of dollars, thousands of dead soldiers. Wont bring up the civilians, since they're so far away and all. I doubt the Afghan government will be able to stand 6 months on its own. Kabul will fall again.

 

Can anything be done to stabilize Syria and Iraq? I dont know? Some sort of end to the civil wars everyone has played a part in maybe? Is anyone even looking at that? I dont know. Probably not.

 

What sort of one line solution do you expect for this mess? There's no intent at the moment. Oh there may be condolences and raised fists and emotional speeches from your leaders about dealing with these people. But they're changing nothing. Little stop gaps domestically maybe. But the wars go on. Which is why I keep banging on about them. Repeated failures upon failures. From Afghanistan to Iraq to Syria. Yet the wars go on. Dont stop that and nothing else works.

 

Simple one line solution: there has to be a sincere signal of intent to stop the wars. Just look at the state of some of those places man. Beyond belief. And everyone has played a part in it. Simply for wanting one guy in charge instead of the other.

 

I already said I cant really comment on what steps maybe taken locally, increased surveillance or better intelligence or whatever.

[aimaad22 4156]

The sort of steps Chez suggested probably wont work. These people are already blowing themselves up, exactly what to you threaten them with? And it'll be more fodder for recruiting.

Edited March 24, 2016 by aimaad22