TheDimpleboy 0 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 A lot of words there dimple boy but not a lot of actual content. However, I would point out that dismissing the economic benefits of immigration because people who express that view then go on to accuse you of being Enoch Powell is the epitome of being 'simplistic'. The economic debate amongst professional economists never descends to name calling (on the whole). Perhaps you should engage with the authors of such analyses instead of twits on your Facebook for a more fruitful understanding of the dynamics? Sorry mate I'll try and keep this as concise as possible: -I oppose mass-immigration because an unfettered supply of unskilled/lowskilled workers is obviously bad for the working class here in terms of employment opportunities as well as perpetuating a 'race to the bottom'. -Holding such a view has had me called racist on numerous occasions, by people that seem to want to show how tolerant they are, while being intolerant of any opposing opinion. I'm more than aware of the supposed economic benefits, HOWEVER, these benefits are in effect the 'productivity' of immigrants, and surely would be just the same if it was British workers filling these jobs? Just to make it clear I would never EVER support any form of repatriation, I just think it's time to cut our losses sharpish. -Also, just because it may benefit the country economically slightly, is that something we should continue to support regardless of the impact it has on British workers? That sounds a hell of a lot like Thatcherism to me mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Ok I'll boil it down for you. 'They come over here and take our jobs'. Your premise seems to be that there are low paid jobs going to immigrants which indigenous working class people are applying for and not getting. This is deemed unfair because of the negative impact on the working class. First of all you need to disentangle the impact and the reasons for joblessness in the lower paid sector. http://leftfootforward.org/2013/04/did-immigration-depress-the-wages-of-working-class-britons/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401686.html Then you need to think about fairness. If some of the indigenous working class prefer to stay on benefits rather than seek work and some immigrants want to work at any wage, then when the economic calculus says they benefit the wealth of the nation overall, then some of that changing pattern of employment is fundamentally fair. UKIP is just a reaction to the economic slowdown and disentangling that on a local high street is an issue. As is FN, Syriza, Podemos and even (to me and rather tangentially) ISIS are all reactions to the growing problem of inequality and the persistence of stagnant economies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Yeah we have to start paying more than ISIS. Edited March 16, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 UKIP = Right Wing Tories. They are counting on protest votes as there is a lot of disillusionment with the main parties, people just don't believe what they are being promised. Also the fact that Farage is a lot more charismatic than the others, it goes a long way when the PM is a complete cretin. The funny thing is about the rise in popularity with UKIP is the new voters they have gained have little idea of what their policies are, I had a conversation just last week with someone who talked about how the Tories saved the country from oblivion and made us proud again, saving the economy etc etc. I then asked who he was voting for, he replied UKIP. The sole reason was down to immigration. He had no idea of anything else UKIP stand for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35079 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think the left may have already lost its influence. It's all neo-liberal economics now anyway. And those 'rebels' UKIP don't even pretend they're going to change that as far I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35079 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 UKIP = Right Wing Tories. They are counting on protest votes as there is a lot of disillusionment with the main parties, people just don't believe what they are being promised. Also the fact that Farage is a lot more charismatic than the others, it goes a long way when the PM is a complete cretin. The funny thing is about the rise in popularity with UKIP is the new voters they have gained have little idea of what their policies are, I had a conversation just last week with someone who talked about how the Tories saved the country from oblivion and made us proud again, saving the economy etc etc. I then asked who he was voting for, he replied UKIP. The sole reason was down to immigration. He had no idea of anything else UKIP stand for. UKIP are probably looking at something like one seat but, next time round, who knows? It looks like a second consecutive hung Parliament which represents quite a sea change considering how infrequent they've been in the past. The major parties might actually have to seriously think about the way they do things. For ages it's all been about putting their resources into fighting the 100 or so marginal seats that determine the government in general elections and, basically, neglecting the concerns of anyone else. UKIP have tapped into this and, whether you agree with them or not (I don't for what it's worth) plenty people do have legitimate concerns about immigration and the EU. The error of the main parties has been to label UKIP and its supporters as a racist lunatic fringe when in fact many Tories have wanted out of the EU for ages and don't like the levels of immigration. Similarly many traditional Labour voters think that waves of EU immigration have flooded the job markets with tradesmen etc. For them, it feels like a betrayal. Obviously there's a lot of crossover there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Aye, no one had a clue that he wasn't a big fan of brown faces before that interview. There were lot's of people who said he wasn't racist. There are some thick people out there who need everything laid out in front of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 FTR EU migration is mainly white faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42440 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 FTR EU migration is mainly white faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Germans call us monkey island btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42440 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The Sausage eating humorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 You know all this soul searching about immigration and so on we go through...Well even five years ago it was really difficult for people born in Germany of non-German extraction to get their citizenship...This is the country that lectures us about our behaviour with regard to the EU. They're taking the fuking piss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42440 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Anyone would think they won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 What did the Romans ever do for us? How about guaranteeing four weeks paid holiday? Basic rights for agency workers? The rights for employees not to be worked into the ground? The right to maintaining your contract should your company change hands? Equality for part time workers? Health and safety protection? Of course none of this benefits the working class, eh? It's all about the foreigners coming in taking our jobs. You've got an issue with immigration from the EU but that cannot be looked at in isolation. The free movement of people is one of the key pillars that underpins the EU. You take that away then you take away all of it. What happens if UKIP get their way and we leave the EU? Do the multi-national companies that employ millions up sticks and move to an EU member state? Or does the government try to make Britain a more business friendly nation by eroding employee rights now that those spoil sports in Brussels can't tell them what to do any more. You talk about a race to the bottom, well that's what will happen if we leave the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17257 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 You know all this soul searching about immigration and so on we go through...Well even five years ago it was really difficult for people born in Germany of non-German extraction to get their citizenship...This is the country that lectures us about our behaviour with regard to the EU. They're taking the fuking piss. I bet Podolski and Klose's families didn't have any bother with that shite though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 What did the Romans ever do for us? How about guaranteeing four weeks paid holiday? Basic rights for agency workers? The rights for employees not to be worked into the ground? The right to maintaining your contract should your company change hands? Equality for part time workers? Health and safety protection? Of course none of this benefits the working class, eh? It's all about the foreigners coming in taking our jobs. You've got an issue with immigration from the EU but that cannot be looked at in isolation. The free movement of people is one of the key pillars that underpins the EU. You take that away then you take away all of it. What happens if UKIP get their way and we leave the EU? Do the multi-national companies that employ millions up sticks and move to an EU member state? Or does the government try to make Britain a more business friendly nation by eroding employee rights now that those spoil sports in Brussels can't tell them what to do any more. You talk about a race to the bottom, well that's what will happen if we leave the EU. QTF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QTF Quit The Fuckingcountry? Quick The Frogsarecoming? Query The Foreignpolicy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 What did the Romans ever do for us? How about guaranteeing four weeks paid holiday? Basic rights for agency workers? The rights for employees not to be worked into the ground? The right to maintaining your contract should your company change hands? Equality for part time workers? Health and safety protection? Of course none of this benefits the working class, eh? It's all about the foreigners coming in taking our jobs. You've got an issue with immigration from the EU but that cannot be looked at in isolation. The free movement of people is one of the key pillars that underpins the EU. You take that away then you take away all of it. What happens if UKIP get their way and we leave the EU? Do the multi-national companies that employ millions up sticks and move to an EU member state? Or does the government try to make Britain a more business friendly nation by eroding employee rights now that those spoil sports in Brussels can't tell them what to do any more. You talk about a race to the bottom, well that's what will happen if we leave the EU. That's why there is record unemployment in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 That's why there is record unemployment in the EU. Surely that's because there was a huge crash in the stock market and unfortunately the Euro stopped countries like portugal and spain de valuing their currency and promoting huge influxes of tourists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Surely that's because there was a huge crash in the stock market and unfortunately the Euro stopped countries like portugal and spain de valuing their currency and promoting huge influxes of tourists. Yes and also at my friends company in France it took him 2 years to sack a secretary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) If the workers want what's theirs they need to do a revolution or shut the fuck up. Even if we leave the EU most of the social contract will remain in place (like they fuking invented it) or we won't be allowed to trade with them. The Germans are fuking the whole EU and their dream is to move the financial hub to Frankfurt. Their singular interest in keeping it going is that the euro standardises their exports and makes German goods 'seem' competitive. If the EU was for real then we should be giving Greece money to rebuild not lending it from vulture banks. Nothing the Germans say about the EU is real...They know it's a total scam. Edited March 17, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42440 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 If the workers want what's theirs they need to do a revolution or shut the fuck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes and also at my friends company in France it took him 2 years to sack a secretary. That's fuck all to do with the EU because it doesn't take 2 years here. Unless she is off sick due to something covered by disability and couldn't come in for a disciplinary meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) That's fuck all to do with the EU because it doesn't take 2 years here. Unless she is off sick due to something covered by disability and couldn't come in for a disciplinary meeting. It doesn't take 2 years here cause we have an opt out. We're also negotiation a wider opt out to protect the NHS. Edited March 17, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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