Andrew 4650 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Sorry got the wrong end of the stick Anyone who thinks Evans should be able to play football again should have their vote removed tbh. McKay still hasn't been found guilty of anything I guess. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1205 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Sorry got the wrong end of the stick Anyone who thinks Evans should be able to play football again should have their vote removed tbh. McKay still hasn't been found guilty of anything I guess. I think it's a difficult one re Evans. He's been convicted of a crime and been punished. The law says he has a right to resume his career once he's served his time so if he can't play football again (like other footballers like Lee Hughes did after killing someone) what is he to do? I heard an argument on radio 2 saying that if he was plumber or some other job that wasn't in the public eye then that would be ok. I can't say that I can agree with that like. Apart from anything else the fact that he is in the public eye means that he's well known so if he would want to do it again, people would know him and be more wary so less likely to be caught out by him. I also don't agree that professional footballers should be role models. Anyone who uses pro footballers as a role model for their children wants those kids taken off them! Having said that I wouldn't want him anywhere near our club and I can't say that I'd be happy working with someone who I knew had been convicted of such a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15121 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Lack of contrition is part of the issue in the way the Evans case is being perceived, not that that has any bearing as such, and obviously if he still doesn't think he was in the wrong then I'd hardly expect him to pretend solely to rescue his career. But it's definitely one factor in the resistance there's been, the nature of the "role model" argument and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1205 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) Lack of contrition is part of the issue in the way the Evans case is being perceived, not that that has any bearing as such, and obviously if he still doesn't think he was in the wrong then I'd hardly expect him to pretend solely to rescue his career. But it's definitely one factor in the resistance there's been, the nature of the "role model" argument and all.Is he not still trying to appeal the conviction too? Obviously he can't say he's sorry on one hand and argue he did nothing wrong on the other. I don't really know enough about the actual case to make any comment on whether I think he's guilty or whether the victim is in some way responsible (not that I think any woman who is raped can ever be responsible) I was more just thinking about what you can do with someone who has been convicted of such a crime and then served their time. Edited November 20, 2014 by David Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29492 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Having read the facts of the case I reckon he has been hard done by tbh. As has been said, he can't show contrition or remorse when he's pleading innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10430 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 I don't remember seeing much of a debate on here about Ched Evans but the main argument by people in favour of him being allowed to resume his career is that he's served his time and should now be allowed to make a life for himself using his marketable abilities (being a pro footballer). If that's the case for him then surely it must follow that McKay be allowed to resume his own career. I know it's slightly different in that McKay's faced no punishment (not sure whether there is any legal punishment he could face) other than being sacked, but people make mistakes and people are bellends but should that stop them from ever being able to make a career for themselves again? If they can't what is society to do with them? Let them live on beneifts for the rest of their lives? Obviously I'm not arguing that Whelan isn't a twat as he clearly is. The big issue for me with Evans is that he's been resolute in his loud and insistent claims of innocence. He is entirely unapologetic and is failing in his role as an example to young lads. Proof of that can be seen in the attacks that Jessica Ennis has been receiving through social media. Mackay sent some (incredibly stupid) texts from a work phone. I'm sure we've all said some pretty awful stuff in private, but if we'd done it from a work phone/email account we'd expect to be binned off. I'm not convinced Mackay is a racist, but he's certainly a fucking idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1205 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The big issue for me with Evans is that he's been resolute in his loud and insistent claims of innocence. He is entirely unapologetic and is failing in his role as an example to young lads. Proof of that can be seen in the attacks that Jessica Ennis has been receiving through social media. Mackay sent some (incredibly stupid) texts from a work phone. I'm sure we've all said some pretty awful stuff in private, but if we'd done it from a work phone/email account we'd expect to be binned off. I'm not convinced Mackay is a racist, but he's certainly a fucking idiot. As has already been mentioned though, how can Evans be appologetic if he claims he's innocent and appealling against the conviction. And I already stated I don't believe he or any other footballer should be expected to be a role model (there are some good ones and you can take them individually on merit but in general they're all well off young lads who I would expect to be cunts a lot of the time and they don't disapoint on that score). All I know about Ennis is that she said she wanted her name taken off the stand if he was re employed, which I think she is quite within her rights to say (fuck knows why they have a stand named after her in the first place). I don't know what attacks you're referring to. I agree with you entirely about McKay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10430 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 As has already been mentioned though, how can Evans be appologetic if he claims he's innocent and appealling against the conviction. And I already stated I don't believe he or any other footballer should be expected to be a role model (there are some good ones and you can take them individually on merit but in general they're all well off young lads who I would expect to be cunts a lot of the time and they don't disapoint on that score). All I know about Ennis is that she said she wanted her name taken off the stand if he was re employed, which I think she is quite within her rights to say (fuck knows why they have a stand named after her in the first place). I don't know what attacks you're referring to. I agree with you entirely about McKay. By simply refraining from claiming innocence (after a court has found him guilty) would go a long way. Look at Woodgate after that racist attack him and Bowyer were involved in. He was the only one found guilty, but he got his head down, did the community service and acted contrite. A few people kicked up a fuss about him, but nor nearly as many as have for Evans. He could appeal, fight his case and do it all without doing it loudly. Re: being a role-model, it's not really his choice. He must be held to a higher standard because of his influence. The majority of professional footballers get by without half the furore that the minority do. Some top-flight players go their entire careers without featuring in the magazines and celebrity gossip pages. But you've got to be a certain standard of stupid to be convicted of rape and then still act the cunt. Given he's been on tv and in the papers so much, you'd think he'd have a PR advisor; someone to tell him that the best possible course of action is appear contrite, appear eager to prove you've turned a leaf, do everything you can to distance yourself from your crime while accepting any criticism about it that comes your way. Do that and it'd blow over far far quicker. But as it stands, there'll be a fresh story about Evans the Rapist when/if ever he makes his debut, whenever he scores, banners about him in the stands, whenever Ennis competes, etc. The Ennis stuff is idiotic; little pre-pubescent shits saying things like "I hope he rapes her when he returns" etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15121 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The Ennis stuff is idiotic; little pre-pubescent shits saying things like "I hope he rapes her when he returns" etc. Pre-match banter ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29492 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 By simply refraining from claiming innocence (after a court has found him guilty) would go a long way. Look at Woodgate after that racist attack him and Bowyer were involved in. He was the only one found guilty, but he got his head down, did the community service and acted contrite. A few people kicked up a fuss about him, but nor nearly as many as have for Evans. He could appeal, fight his case and do it all without doing it loudly. AFAIA he has released one video statement and hasn't said anything else since. I'm not sure what exactly you think he has done 'loudly'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10430 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 Pre-match banter ffs. AFAIA he has released one video statement and hasn't said anything else since. I'm not sure what exactly you think he has done 'loudly'? There's his original video statement, chedevans.com, and another video coming this week, but then loud doesn't mean frequent. But I worry that focussing on semantics might muddy the issue. My over-arching point is that the best thing a convicted rapist could do is get his head down, avoid controversy, avoid the spotlight, and just get on with his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1205 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 By simply refraining from claiming innocence (after a court has found him guilty) would go a long way. Look at Woodgate after that racist attack him and Bowyer were involved in. He was the only one found guilty, but he got his head down, did the community service and acted contrite. A few people kicked up a fuss about him, but nor nearly as many as have for Evans. He could appeal, fight his case and do it all without doing it loudly. Re: being a role-model, it's not really his choice. He must be held to a higher standard because of his influence. The majority of professional footballers get by without half the furore that the minority do. Some top-flight players go their entire careers without featuring in the magazines and celebrity gossip pages. But you've got to be a certain standard of stupid to be convicted of rape and then still act the cunt. Given he's been on tv and in the papers so much, you'd think he'd have a PR advisor; someone to tell him that the best possible course of action is appear contrite, appear eager to prove you've turned a leaf, do everything you can to distance yourself from your crime while accepting any criticism about it that comes your way. Do that and it'd blow over far far quicker. But as it stands, there'll be a fresh story about Evans the Rapist when/if ever he makes his debut, whenever he scores, banners about him in the stands, whenever Ennis competes, etc. The Ennis stuff is idiotic; little pre-pubescent shits saying things like "I hope he rapes her when he returns" etc. I think there are a couple of flaws to your logic there. Firstly, Woodgate never got convicted of rape. The fact that it's rape is the biggest thing with Evans. As much as a racial assault is a hot topic for certain sections of society, it's not in the same league as rape. Secondly why should someone appear contrite if they think they are innocent and have suffered a miscarriage of justice. As I've said I don't know the facts of the case and have no opinion on whether or not he is guilty but if I was thought I was innocent and someone was claiming somthing false against me, the last thing I would be would be sorry. If he feels genuinely agreived then he has a right to say so. On the role model thing, I sort of agree because society does put footballers on a pedestal. It's just my opinion that it's a ridiculous thing to do. Why should we expect more of these people than anyone else. But you're right, maybe he should get an advisor. I wonder if Max Clifford is doing anything? Anyone saying things like that to Ennis is a grade A moron but that's not really his fault. She brought herself into it not him. He could say something like it's her right to express her opinion in relation to the stand named after her but he can't be held responsible for every fuckwit who tweets shite like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29492 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 My over-arching point is that the best thing a convicted rapist could do is get his head down, avoid controversy, avoid the spotlight, and just get on with his career. Perhaps but if the lad is innocent as he claims then it must be incredibly frustrating to listen to all he has done from the media while anyone who attempts to take an opposing view is immediately forced to apologise for not conforming to the majority line. The case was far from black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10430 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 I think there are a couple of flaws to your logic there. Firstly, Woodgate never got convicted of rape. The fact that it's rape is the biggest thing with Evans. As much as a racial assault is a hot topic for certain sections of society, it's not in the same league as rape. Secondly why should someone appear contrite if they think they are innocent and have suffered a miscarriage of justice. As I've said I don't know the facts of the case and have no opinion on whether or not he is guilty but if I was thought I was innocent and someone was claiming somthing false against me, the last thing I would be would be sorry. If he feels genuinely agreived then he has a right to say so. On the role model thing, I sort of agree because society does put footballers on a pedestal. It's just my opinion that it's a ridiculous thing to do. Why should we expect more of these people than anyone else. But you're right, maybe he should get an advisor. I wonder if Max Clifford is doing anything? Anyone saying things like that to Ennis is a grade A moron but that's not really his fault. She brought herself into it not him. He could say something like it's her right to express her opinion in relation to the stand named after her but he can't be held responsible for every fuckwit who tweets shite like that. Firstly - I don't really want to get into arguing about degrees of awful. A racially motivated assault, or a sexually motivated assault are fucking horrible things that those found guilty should be properly punished and those that've served time should be contrite. Secondly - A builder, baker or cabbie falsely found guilty can be as adamant as he likes about his innocence because, frankly, he's not getting the attention that a footballer will. As a famous footballer, releasing a video stating your innocence as soon as you get out of jail is courting controversy, picking at wounds and wouldn't benefit your appeal process. Not least because it's implying the police, Prosecutors, Judge and jury are either incompetent, or corrupt. It's fine if he believes himself innocent and wishes to appeal, but using the media is almost vainglorious. He's an idiot, a convicted rapist and frankly a bit of a shit on the pitch too. While he can't be held directly responsible for the tweet of angry teenage oiks, he should appreciate the fact that he has influence over that deafening subsect of society. Sheffield United want a kicking as well, what did they honestly think would happen? What benefit are they getting from this? A display of loyalty to a convicted rapist? They've gained no friends in this and lost a fair few. From a PR stand point (though I'm definitely not even close to being an expert), this has been a FUBAR-ed omnishambles of a clusterfuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10430 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 Perhaps but if the lad is innocent as he claims then it must be incredibly frustrating to listen to all he has done from the media while anyone who attempts to take an opposing view is immediately forced to apologise for not conforming to the majority line. The case was far from black and white. But he courted the attention? Regardless of his innocence, he keeps his head down it's a story for a week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3710 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Why? Because he's a rapist cunt. Only cold blooded murder ranks above rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3710 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 As has already been mentioned though, how can Evans be appologetic if he claims he's innocent and appealling against the conviction. And I already stated I don't believe he or any other footballer should be expected to be a role model (there are some good ones and you can take them individually on merit but in general they're all well off young lads who I would expect to be cunts a lot of the time and they don't disapoint on that score). All I know about Ennis is that she said she wanted her name taken off the stand if he was re employed, which I think she is quite within her rights to say (fuck knows why they have a stand named after her in the first place). I don't know what attacks you're referring to. I agree with you entirely about McKay. He claims he is innocent because he thinks it's ok to fuck a woman who can't say no due to being unconscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1205 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 He claims he is innocent because he thinks it's ok to fuck a woman who can't say no due to being unconscious.As I've said, I'm no expert on the details. I'd heard there was one of his friends involved too who wasn't convicted. Is this not the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29492 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 But he courted the attention? Regardless of his innocence, he keeps his head down it's a story for a week or so. Rubbish, he didn't court the attention. The media was all over it at the time and even more so when he was released without him saying a word. I know that his family had a website supporting his defence but it wasn't like the guy has been on every TV and radio show shouting his innocence from the rooftops. Most of the recent furore has come from Sheffield United's decision to let him train with them, not because he hasn't been keeping his head down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3710 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 As I've said, I'm no expert on the details. I'd heard there was one of his friends involved too who wasn't convicted. Is this not the case? I believe she had already given her consent to him. Ched decided to rape her. He was found guilty and had an appeal quashed yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29492 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 As I've said, I'm no expert on the details. I'd heard there was one of his friends involved too who wasn't convicted. Is this not the case? The issue there is that his mate was having sex with her first and then he joined in. The prosecution said that she was too drunk to give consent to Evans, yet the question is why wasn't she too drunk to consent to his mate? By the time Evans arrived she hadn't drank any more and so if anything she could have been more sober to give consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1205 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Firstly - I don't really want to get into arguing about degrees of awful. A racially motivated assault, or a sexually motivated assault are fucking horrible things that those found guilty should be properly punished and those that've served time should be contrite. Secondly - A builder, baker or cabbie falsely found guilty can be as adamant as he likes about his innocence because, frankly, he's not getting the attention that a footballer will. As a famous footballer, releasing a video stating your innocence as soon as you get out of jail is courting controversy, picking at wounds and wouldn't benefit your appeal process. Not least because it's implying the police, Prosecutors, Judge and jury are either incompetent, or corrupt. It's fine if he believes himself innocent and wishes to appeal, but using the media is almost vainglorious. He's an idiot, a convicted rapist and frankly a bit of a shit on the pitch too. While he can't be held directly responsible for the tweet of angry teenage oiks, he should appreciate the fact that he has influence over that deafening subsect of society. Sheffield United want a kicking as well, what did they honestly think would happen? What benefit are they getting from this? A display of loyalty to a convicted rapist? They've gained no friends in this and lost a fair few. From a PR stand point (though I'm definitely not even close to being an expert), this has been a FUBAR-ed omnishambles of a clusterfuck. I'm not suggesting one crime is worse than another only saying that rape pushes more buttons in terms of public opinion that assault (even racially motivated). He may not be doing things that are best for his case but again I would say that if I felt I'd suffered a miscarriage of justice I'd probably shout it from the rooftops. It's certainly not uncommon for people to do that whether or not it's in their best interests. If I was him I would appealling to anyone attacking anyone with a viewpoint like Ennis to stop but him not doing is hardly a case against him in the overall matter. It's more a missed opportinty for him than anything else. It's quite a hard situation for Sheffield. The answer isn't easy imo as I said in my first post. They certainly don't gain much from this and I doubt he'll ever play for them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34100 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The issue there is that his mate was having sex with her first and then he joined in. The prosecution said that she was too drunk to give consent to Evans, yet the question is why wasn't she too drunk to consent to his mate? By the time Evans arrived she hadn't drank any more and so if anything she could have been more sober to give consent. Or asleep / passed out. Which is more likely I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10430 Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 Rubbish, he didn't court the attention. The media was all over it at the time and even more so when he was released without him saying a word. I know that his family had a website supporting his defence but it wasn't like the guy has been on every TV and radio show shouting his innocence from the rooftops. Most of the recent furore has come from Sheffield United's decision to let him train with them, not because he hasn't been keeping his head down. Not having that sorry. He released a fucking video. Want to avoid controversy? Have your lawyer release a dry statement saying that you just want to get your life back on track, he needn't say anything about his belief that he's innocent, especially when it appears his defence is that having sex with a girl is ok as long as she's consented to your mate. Not sure why you're defending his stupid decisions? Unless you're just doing it through boredom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29492 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Or asleep / passed out. Which is more likely I reckon. I don't believe there's any evidence to suggest that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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