The Cricket Thread

[David Kelly 1260]

I don't know who got MOM in the end but it was a hard pick. Lots of contributions with the bat and ball which was pleasing to see.

[Dr Gloom 22228]

it was moeen. a real team effort though. wickets and runs shared pretty evenly without a century or 5 wicket haul.

 

i fancied us yesterday like. never easy for a team batting last on a final day with so many runs on the board. pakistan don't look that sort of side than can grind out a draw either. pretty big tail once you get their main batters out. still impressive to win after over a hundred runs after conceding a 100 run first innings deficit.

[Dickie 0]

Aye it was a great win that. They deserved it for the way they kept pushing for the win as soon as they knew they'd got a decent 2nd innings lead. I was really disappointed with the lines that Pakistan bowled on the 4th day - after they'd gotten Cook and Hayles out they should have at least had an hour or so attacking, trying to go for the kill. Very negative to keep bowling wide of off stump with a sweeper, especially to Vince and Ballance, and they basically ruled themselves out of a win and out of what would have been one of the most famous series wins in their history. Don't know if The Oval still takes spin as much as it used to cos I haven't really followed cricket for the last 10 years, but if it does I'd quite like to see them drop one of the top order, move Moeen up and bring in this kid Rashid they've been talking about. I don't think for a second they'll do that, given how well all the seamers bowled and it would be harsh on whichever top order batter got dropped, but for me you can't beat watching spinners attacking on a turning wicket. At least if it does spin then that Pakistan leg spinner should be good to watch and Pakistan will have to attack now if they don't want to lose the series.

[Alex 35678]

Think the Oval will spin a bit. Swann was saying a while back all the pitches are dry this late in the season because of the excellent drainage at all the international grounds now. .

[Dr Gloom 22228]

Aye it was a great win that. They deserved it for the way they kept pushing for the win as soon as they knew they'd got a decent 2nd innings lead. I was really disappointed with the lines that Pakistan bowled on the 4th day - after they'd gotten Cook and Hayles out they should have at least had an hour or so attacking, trying to go for the kill. Very negative to keep bowling wide of off stump with a sweeper, especially to Vince and Ballance, and they basically ruled themselves out of a win and out of what would have been one of the most famous series wins in their history. Don't know if The Oval still takes spin as much as it used to cos I haven't really followed cricket for the last 10 years, but if it does I'd quite like to see them drop one of the top order, move Moeen up and bring in this kid Rashid they've been talking about. I don't think for a second they'll do that, given how well all the seamers bowled and it would be harsh on whichever top order batter got dropped, but for me you can't beat watching spinners attacking on a turning wicket. At least if it does spin then that Pakistan leg spinner should be good to watch and Pakistan will have to attack now if they don't want to lose the series.

 

i think that's exactly what we should do. moeen has shown his class with the bat this summer. i'm sure his average would be more than the low 30s it is currently if he didn't always have to bat with the tail.

 

vince shouldn't be surprised if he's dropped. there were signs that he was getting to grips with test cricket in this game, but he's yet to score a 50 in 14 innings, so you can't say he hasn't had a fair crack at it. people have been given much less of a chance and have been dropped in the past.

 

rashid is yet to play a home test. there comes a point when you have to give him a chance. i agree with you that they won't try him out at the oval. hard to imagine them being bold enough to change a winning team.

[Alex 35678]

Think it would take some freak injury between now and then for it not to be the same XI

[Alex 35678]

Btw, it's a shame Ken doesn't post much these days. Would love to get his take on the current Sri Lanka - Australia series.

[David Kelly 1260]

If Vince's finger injury had been worse they might have gone for the second spinner option but it's just bruising apparently.

[Alex 35678]

They'd have played another batsman anyway I think. Different if Stokes was available.

[David Kelly 1260]

They'd have played another batsman anyway I think. Different if Stokes was available.

Who would they have played? They seem to be struggling with who to play at four but they have it seems, quite a bit of confidence in Ali. Move him up the order and bring in Rashid who's anything but a mug with the bat. I certainly don't think they will do this if Vince isn't injured but I think it's as likely as any other option if he is and Stokes still isn't fit.

[Alex 35678]

Someone like Borthwick or Bell-Drummond from the Lions squad. I think they'd have made a cautious selection based on being 2-1 up and the middle order batting still looking a bit fragile.

[David Kelly 1260]

Do you not think moving Ali up the order would be a cautious move anyway? He's an establised international whereas Borthwick or Bell Drummond aren't. And Rashid managed a 60 against Pakistan last year. For me it's a more cautious move than bringing in two virtually untried players. Of course they could bring Bell back in, that would be really cautious.

[Alex 35678]

I think Bell's gone. I take your point and I'd like to have seen that done anyway. I think they'd have gone for a specialist batsman though. Looking ahead, I think Stokes could easily bat at 5

[David Kelly 1260]

If Finn can find his form again (which it's starting to look like) then we are going to have an embarassment of riches in the bowling attack. Anderson, Broad, Stokes, Woakes, Finn and Wood coming back. Stokes could be used as more of a specialist batsman but I think that might take something away from him. He loves to contribute to the team whether it be batting, bowling or fielding. I'd fear if you took one aspect away from him then it might effect the others. Would we want/be able to make use of five seamers in the attack?

[Alex 35678]

I think he'll stay at 6 tbh. He is good enough to bat even higher though. And I take your point. I think they'll play virtually every match with 4 seamers and a spinner. As for the bowling, all the better, especially as Anderson hasn't got too long left.

[Dr Gloom 22228]

we're blessed with so many quality all rounders that you could arguably play 5 or 6 seamers and 2 spinners without the batting suffering too much.

[Alex 35678]

Think DK has a good point re: losing something if the bowlers are then under utilised if you have too many of them though.

[Dr Gloom 22228]

you could just give then shorter bursts - 4 or 5 overs at a time rather than spells of 6-7, unless they're on a wicket taking roll. could arguably keep them fresher and allow them to really steam in. though clearly some enjoys prefer a longer spell to finda rhythm i think impact bowlers like finn and stokes would adapt to being used that way.

 

i think the idea of moeen as an occasional spinner instead of being the guy expected to bowl us to victory on day 5 would be a good thing. he's a better batter than he is spinner and wouldn't look out of place at number 4, 5 or 6.

[Alex 35678]

Thoiught he bowled well yesterday mind, Moeen Ali that is. I really hope he can keep developing as a spinner because his batting is more than good enough. They don't seem to trust trust Rashid.

[Dr Gloom 22228]

no, but they'll never know unless they give him a fair shot.

 

i rate moeen highly as a batsman. reckon he'd average in the 40s if he was played higher up the order. he bowled well yesterday but i don't think cook trusts him that much either. he isn't really able to tie up an end when it isn't turning and he seems to take a lot of his wickets when people go after him because they don't rate him. he's no mug, but he's got a long way to go before you can call him a proper frontline spinner. that's not a major criticism of him either - i think he's done pretty well considering he's a batter who bowls a bit whose been asked to bowl us to victory as the senior spinner in the side.

[David Kelly 1260]

He clearly isn't a frontline spinner we just don't seem to have any others in county cricket which are deemed up to the standard. Ali is trying to learn to be one playing at the most difficult level. He's going to take a beating some times.

[Dr Gloom 22228]

I think Rashid is primarily a bowler who bats a bit, that's the difference. I think you have to ask if moeen is the best spin bowler in the country. And if he isn't, we should play whoever is. There's enough strength in the bowling and batting to accommodate a specialist spinner.

[Dickie 0]

Aye he is going to take some beatings. I didn't realise the winter tour is to Bangladesh and India. Ideally you want at least one spinner you can rely on to bowl 20+ overs per day in India cos if they're anything like they used to be they'll be preparing slow turners. I think with that in mind it would be canny if England decided to prepare a turner at the Oval and select Rashid at the expense of one of the top order and see how he gets on. I hadn't realised Rashid has already played for England, obviously missed that while I've not been watching in recent years - I'm guessing he didn't set the world alight. He's been around longer than I thought but looking at his first class record, its decent enough - 436 wickets in 10 seasons, so an average of 40 wickets per season, bearing in mind that leg spinning in English conditions for the first half of the season is usually a write off, isn't too shabby. I remember Graeme Swann playing county cricket for years before he got a run in the test side and never really looked like a world beater in that time, so I'd like to see a leg spinner like Rashid to be given the same sort of chance to make the step up.

[Dickie 0]

Think the Oval will spin a bit. Swann was saying a while back all the pitches are dry this late in the season because of the excellent drainage at all the international grounds now. .

 

Ah right, that makes sense. The Oval always used to take spin anyway, but that might have been cos they always used to play the final test of each home series there, so it was always late summer. I remember Tufnell taking a hatful there against Australia in 97, the same series where Hussain scored a double hundred in the first test. That was a brilliant series, even though England got howked in the middle 3 tests - the standard of cricket was higher then I reckon.

[Dr Gloom 22228]

Winning any test match against that Aussie team was an achievement. The 97 vintage was immense.

 

I credit Hussain and Fletcher for laying the foundations for the 2005 ashes win. He was an ugly batsman but a good captain and made us competitive again.