Black Managers

[Howay 12496]

That'll dee me fine HMHM

[trophyshy 7084]

English FA need to watch this.

 

Edited October 2, 2014 by trophyshy

[Monkeys Fist 43067]

Sure, allow me.

 

(Adams family tune)

Der der der der

Bom Bom

Der der der der

Bom Bom

Der der der der

Der Der der der

Der der der der

Bom Bom.

The Brucie family started,

When Steve 'Pat Butcher' farted,

His hair the shockwave parted,

The Brucie family.

Der Der Der Der

Bom Bom

Der Der Der der

Bom Bom

Der der der der

Der der der der

Der der der der

Bom Bom.

 

 

 

Hope that helped, Howay.

[Park Life 71]

Chelsea’s manager, José Mourinho, has rejected calls for the introduction of the Rooney Rule in English football, stating that managers should be appointed on merit and not because of the colour of their skin.

The Professional Footballers’ Association chief executive, Gordon Taylor, claims “there is a hidden racism which holds clubs back” with the appointment of black and ethnic minority managers.

Only two out of 92 clubs in English football’s top four divisions employ a black manager after Chris Powell took charge of Huddersfield Town and Keith Curle joined Carlisle United last month and Taylor this week called for English football to adopt the Rooney Rule.

The Rooney Rule is used in the NFL to ensure ethnic minority candidates are adequately represented in the interview process for head coaching positions.

[Phil 6]

Notts County sacked him after losing 9 games in a row then Blackpool sacked him having lost 9 games in 10.Inter and Monaco showed an interest in signing his son last summer.Newspapers reported that he had travelled to both clubs to see what offers,if any,were on the Ince table. With guidence from from his father, Tom ended up at Hull,where his has played in only half their Premier League games this season.

I didn't realise he went to Notts County.

 

Yeah hocking his son around while still being his manager at Blackpool was a bit mental, but the plight they are in now suggests he may have had to put up with quite a lot of shite behind the scenes.

 

I still think of him when anyone talks about the next up and coming manager, as I have friends living in both MK and Blackburn.

[luckyluke 2]

Chelsea’s manager, José Mourinho, has rejected calls for the introduction of the Rooney Rule in English football, stating that managers should be appointed on merit and not because of the colour of their skin.

The Professional Footballers’ Association chief executive, Gordon Taylor, claims “there is a hidden racism which holds clubs back” with the appointment of black and ethnic minority managers.

Only two out of 92 clubs in English football’s top four divisions employ a black manager after Chris Powell took charge of Huddersfield Town and Keith Curle joined Carlisle United last month and Taylor this week called for English football to adopt the Rooney Rule.

The Rooney Rule is used in the NFL to ensure ethnic minority candidates are adequately represented in the interview process for head coaching positions.

I'm not saying Mourinho is necessarily wrong but you have to take such comments made by a successful white manager with a pinch of salt.

[Bictor 0]

Seen this discussed a few times recently and it's disappointing that anyone could be against the Rooney Rule in English football. It isn't about hiring managers against merit, it's about giving potential minority ethnic managers a chance. There's obviously a lack of current BME people taking the path into management, but undoubtedly the feeling of not being given a fair chance is at least a small part of the reason why. At the VERY worst, the Rooney Rule would mean no increase in potential BME managers and the continuation of the status quo. But in America it has led to a 300% increase in minority ethnic head coaches (stat stolen from BT Sport). And they're getting the jobs on merit, because after being interviewed there are no quotas that have to be met. It's sad that people are against something that would positively effect the disproportionate amount of minority ethnic managers in the game, but I can't say it really surprises me.

[NJS 4411]

Thing is once you have a "forced" choice on your shortlist you'll get shit whether you give him the job or not. Ince would have a field day.

[trophyshy 7084]

I thought the Rooney rule was about allowing people with Down's into football?

[McFaul 35]

There's one in the Lloyds Bank at the Nook. Right miserable fucka to be honest.

 

Paul Ince was fucking shit. Tigana did fuck all with fortunes. They're making it sound like the police man. The Old Bill, do everything they can to get ethnic minorities in to the force, to the extent less suitable people get positions based on the fact they're not white, you'll see the day when it happens in football. Chris Powell gets jobs because he's a great character and clearly capable of doing it. The likes of Ince based on results are shit, but ah keep them in the jobs because people will say it's racist?! Fuck off man.

[Bictor 0]

Thing is once you have a "forced" choice on your shortlist you'll get shit whether you give him the job or not. Ince would have a field day.

 

Nothing has been done for years and little "shit" has been given. What kind of logic leads you to the conclusion that after finally doing something positive, it'll turn into some race war?

[Bictor 0]

There's one in the Lloyds Bank at the Nook. Right miserable fucka to be honest.

 

Paul Ince was fucking shit. Tigana did fuck all with fortunes. They're making it sound like the police man. The Old Bill, do everything they can to get ethnic minorities in to the force, to the extent less suitable people get positions based on the fact they're not white, you'll see the day when it happens in football. Chris Powell gets jobs because he's a great character and clearly capable of doing it. The likes of Ince based on results are shit, but ah keep them in the jobs because people will say it's racist?! Fuck off man.

 

What does how good Paul Ince was a manager have to do with whether minority ethnic managers should be given a chance to be interviewed?

 

Predictable stuff about managers getting jobs because they're not white. Ignoring the fact that the Rooney Rule only means they only get an interview. Turning a genuine issue into one about white managers hypothetically being discriminated against. Couldn't make this shit up. I sometimes wonder what planet people are living on when they think that white people are automatically going to get discriminated against if anything is done to decrease the discrimination against non-white people. It's pathetic.

 

My heart cries for all the white managers that are kept out of jobs because black managers are "kept in jobs because people will say it's racist". It really does.

[ewerk 31201]

Is there a pool of qualified black coaches out there who aren't getting a chance of a shot at the top job? The problem is lower down than the management position, there doesn't appear to be enough coaches at the lower levels of the coaching structure trying to gain the experience required to be in the manager's seat.

[Alex 35583]

How many English managers are there in the top flight? I ask as it relates to what ewerk is saying in that a lot of players in general seem to want a fast track to management in a top job otherwise they can't be arsed (see Shearer although there's loads of other examples). I think it's in part borne out of players being so well off they don't need to find a job after playing so there's little incentive in 'learning the trade'. Not saying there definitely isn't a problem with black managers struggling to find jobs but I have mixed feelings about the Rooney rule.

[Bictor 0]

Is there a pool of qualified black coaches out there who aren't getting a chance of a shot at the top job? The problem is lower down than the management position, there doesn't appear to be enough coaches at the lower levels of the coaching structure trying to gain the experience required to be in the manager's seat.

 

There isn't. Which leads to my point about why BME ex-players and coaches don't go down the management road. Feeling as though they aren't going to be given a chance or be taken seriously is obviously going to be a reason for that. The Rooney Rule would tell BME potential coaches that they will be given a chance. It's not the whole solution, but writing it off just because there aren't currently enough BME coaches is counter-productive if you want to see more BME managers.

[Bictor 0]

How many English managers are there in the top flight? I ask as it relates to what ewerk is saying in that a lot of players in general seem to want a fast track to management in a top job otherwise they can't be arsed (see Shearer although there's loads of other examples). I think it's in part borne out of players being so well off they don't need to find a job after playing so there's little incentive in 'learning the trade'. Not saying there definitely isn't a problem with black managers struggling to find jobs but I have mixed feelings about the Rooney rule.

 

The Rooney Rule isn't about getting people that don't want to go into management, into management. It's about giving the one's that do a chance and giving the one's that potentially do, the incentive (or removing the disincentive) to do so.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Bictor

[ewerk 31201]

Again, it's basically having them skip their apprenticeship. If there are enough experienced black coaches out there then how can anyone give them a manager's role? You're advocating giving interviews to people that you admit don't have any experience.

[ewerk 31201]

The other way to look at it is what harm could it do?

[Bictor 0]

Again, it's basically having them skip their apprenticeship. If there are enough experienced black coaches out there then how can anyone give them a manager's role? You're advocating giving interviews to people that you admit don't have any experience.

 

They don't have to give them a managers role...

 

Yes, I am. Because you have to start from somewhere. Simply ignoring the issue does nothing. You're supporting the current structure which leaves BME ex-players/potential managers feeling as though they won't be given a chance and can't do it.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/nov/01/time-for-rooney-rule-black-managers-at-a-low

 

 

The former Newcastle defender Olivier Bernard always wanted to be a coach but says he was one of many black players put off by a lack of role models, despite taking his preliminary badges. “Why would I be the only one to succeed? It made me disheartened thinking I’m never going to get a chance. You find that managers getting released by clubs get appointed by another club six months down the line, it’s a cycle. And to break into that cycle is very difficult. It’s not what you know, it’s who you know.”

Bernard ended up buying a football club last year, Durham City AFC, a rare example of a black chairman in English football. If the Rooney rule were introduced would he change his view on coaching? “I would look to go back into coaching because there might be an opportunity then. Because then you have a chance.”

 

The issue is easy to ignore if you stick your head in the sand and make yourself believe that racism and discrimination isn't an issue in football, especially on the management side of things. Like I said, it's sad that so many people don't take these issues seriously and will fight so hard to maintain the current structure that clearly isn't working for minority groups.

[Bictor 0]

The other way to look at it is what harm could it do?

 

All white managers would be replaced by Paul Ince, according to the scaremongerers

[The Fish 10963]

If black managers don't get the job because they're black, what good would having an interview before they don't get the job because they're black, actually do?

 

Dyer and Bramble have both said they're not bothered about the Rooney rule and state they don't want to get an interview simply because they're black.

 

I'm not 100% sure that the major reason there are very few BME managers is a prejudice thing, I think a lot of it is to do with how many BME footballers (as that's where the majority of the pool of candidates come from) are interested in management at all.

 

I wonder if it's an age thing? Look at the British managers in the Premier League; Lambert, Dyche, Warnock, Bruce, Pearson, Rodgers*, Pardew, Redknapp, Hughes, Monk, Irvine, Allardyce.

 

Most of them played their football in the 80s and early 90s. Perhaps part of the reason there aren't as many BME managers and coaches is because there weren't as many BME footballers 20/30 years ago?

 

I think a bigger problem than prejudice, is the lack of adequate funding for coaches in England. Can't be arsed to find it but that stat that shows how far behind the continental countries, in terms of number and quality of coaches England is, in my opinion, is as much an issue for BME coaches as anything else.

 

I think the Rooney rule worked in the states, but I think it'd be a square peg for a round hole.

[Bictor 0]

 

If black managers don't get the job because they're black, what good would having an interview before they don't get the job because they're black, actually do?

Dyer and Bramble have both said they're not bothered about the Rooney rule and state they don't want to get an interview simply because they're black.

I'm not 100% sure that the major reason there are very few BME managers is a prejudice thing, I think a lot of it is to do with how many BME footballers (as that's where the majority of the pool of candidates come from) are interested in management at all.

I wonder if it's an age thing? Look at the British managers in the Premier League; Lambert, Dyche, Warnock, Bruce, Pearson, Rodgers*, Pardew, Redknapp, Hughes, Monk, Irvine, Allardyce.

Most of them played their football in the 80s and early 90s. Perhaps part of the reason there aren't as many BME managers and coaches is because there weren't as many BME footballers 20/30 years ago?

I think a bigger problem than prejudice, is the lack of adequate funding for coaches in England. Can't be arsed to find it but that stat that shows how far behind the continental countries, in terms of number and quality of coaches England is, in my opinion, is as much an issue for BME coaches as anything else.

I think the Rooney rule worked in the states, but I think it'd be a square peg for a round hole.

 

It's not as simplistic as "if black managers don't get jobs because they're black what will the Rooney Rule do?". You could've said the same thing about the NFL. And I've already said that the number of BME head coaches increased 300% since the introduction of the rule. There will never be just one reason. But the Rooney Rule encourages BME candidates to step forward. At the moment a lot of potential candidates don't think they're going to be given a chance. THIS is what the Rooney Rule fixes. More BME people will apply because of it and it's been PROVEN to work. Seriously people...

 

No one wants to get an interview "simply because their black". In a perfect world we wouldn't need the Rooney Rule. But this is reality. If Dyer and Bramble want to go into management and they aren't put off by thinking they won't get a chance, the Rooney Rule is not aimed at them. It's aimed at the Olivier Bernard's. He straight up said if there was a Rooney Rule he would feel more confident about going into management because he would know he'd get a chance instead of being discriminated against. Why are people choosing to just ignore the opinions of potential black managers?

 

The Rooney Rule is not about solving the "prejudice thing". If it was owners would be forced to hire BME candidates. That's not what it is.

 

The age thing may be a factor. But I don't get why people need to bring it down to one factor and use it as a reason to not try to help the situation that is clearly down to a number of things. Funding is also probably an issue. That doesn't mean we don't bring in the Rooney Rule to try and solve another issue. I don't get what's so hard to understand. Or are people just choosing to play ignorant because they want to avoid doing something to help?

 

It's not about square pegs going into a round hole, because the Rooney Rule isn't meant to be and won't be the whole solution. If the lack of BME managers is a round hole this is at worst a tiny square peg that will partially fill the whole and can be taken out when we've worked out how to properly fill the hole.

 

And I don't believe the reason people don't want the Rooney Rule is because they care so much about having more BME managers that they aren't satisfied with small progress (it would be easier if people just admitted that the reason they don't want positive discrimination is because they couldn't give two shits about the progression of minority groups).

Edited November 28, 2014 by Bictor

[The Fish 10963]

I don't think people are ignoring the opinions of potential black managers, and I think it's irresponsible of you to suggest that. I think that instead of "ignoring opinions", people are instead of ignoring them, considering them and disagreeing with them.

 

I don't doubt that some young black coaches feel like they're not getting a fair crack of the whip, but I don't think forcing clubs to interview a quota of BME coaches and managers will change the number of coaches and managers. You know what will? a greater number of qualified coaches. That will come by the FA spending actual money on training them.

 

I don't think people are bringing it down to one factor, in fact I'm sure I've said there must be a few different factors and for that very reason, employing the Rooney rule in the UK may not resolve the issue.

[Bictor 0]

I don't think people are ignoring the opinions of potential black managers, and I think it's irresponsible of you to suggest that. I think that instead of "ignoring opinions", people are instead of ignoring them, considering them and disagreeing with them.

 

I don't doubt that some young black coaches feel like they're not getting a fair crack of the whip, but I don't think forcing clubs to interview a quota of BME coaches and managers will change the number of coaches and managers. You know what will? a greater number of qualified coaches. That will come by the FA spending actual money on training them.

 

I don't think people are bringing it down to one factor, in fact I'm sure I've said there must be a few different factors and for that very reason, employing the Rooney rule in the UK may not resolve the issue.

 

You disagree with Olivier Bernard when he says that if there was Rooney Rule he would try to become a manager again because he would feel as though he would be given a chance? You're telling him he's wrong? Is that not actually how he feels?

 

What makes you think it won't increase the number of BME coaches/managers? Because this is based on absolutely no evidence or facts. Whereas we go to America and see that since the Rooney Rule has been enforced black head coaches have gone up 300%. Correlation is not causation, but this is pretty telling. People are blinded by their bias if they think the Rooney Rule will have no effect.

 

You say you aren't bringing it down to one factor but that's EXACTLY what you're doing. "You know what will?" and then you go on to name ONE solution.

 

You're right "employing the Rooney Rule may not resolve the issue". That is not a reason to not do it. No single thing the FA could do would completely resolve the issue. The home-grown players rule was never going to resolve the British players in the PL issue. But they still brought it in. Because they thought it would have some impact and it was a step in the right direction. I have no idea why the same can't be done with the Rooney Rule. Actually, that comparison is hilariously ironic....Are you against the home-grown players rule because it forces teams to have British players in their squad? Where's all the uproar when Ross Turnbull gets signed by Chelsea to fit a quota? More talented foreign players are missing out on the Chelsea squad because of a British player!!!!! OMG so wrong!!!!

Edited November 28, 2014 by Bictor

[The Fish 10963]

Sorry mate but you're letting an emotive subject get away from you.

 

You're putting words into my mouth and I think rather than let you get angrier I'm just going to back away.