The OFFICIAL Transfer Rumours Thread

[The Fish 10858]

 

In all the time Ashley has owned us he has shown zero interest in investment in coaching staff or managers. I don't think it's negative thinking to disagree with your assertion that he's about to start doing so.

 

Except that it's evident to literally everybody with a brain that Carver isn't up to the job.

 

That being the case, the argument in favour of keeping Carver as Head Coach and not investing is defeatist fatalism and emotional rather than logical.

 

Ashley wants Premier League.

Full time Carver can't provide Premier League

Therefore Ashley doesn't want full time Carver.

 

You say Ashley has never invested in coaches, but how often has Ashley been in this situation? He swapped Hughton for PArdew and I'd guess Pardew was on a similar wage to Hughton, maybe a little more. Plus Stone, Woodman? Were they at the club before Ashley?

 

Also, as an aside, I don't believe that the Head Coach is going to be paid well in comparison to the other managers, so I don't believe the investment would be that large.

[David Kelly 1245]

Except that it's evident to literally everybody with a brain that Carver isn't up to the job.

 

That being the case, the argument in favour of keeping Carver as Head Coach and not investing is defeatist fatalism and emotional rather than logical.

 

Ashley wants Premier League.

Full time Carver can't provide Premier League

Therefore Ashley doesn't want full time Carver.

 

You say Ashley has never invested in coaches, but how often has Ashley been in this situation? He swapped Hughton for PArdew and I'd guess Pardew was on a similar wage to Hughton, maybe a little more. Plus Stone, Woodman? Were they at the club before Ashley?

 

Also, as an aside, I don't believe that the Head Coach is going to be paid well in comparison to the other managers, so I don't believe the investment would be that large.

Woodman etc weren't at the club prior to Ashley but at the point he arrived we had fat sam and his multitude of coaches and technical people so I'm quite certain we will have had more coaching staff then.

And just because it's as obvious as the kebab meat on Carvers face that he's not up to the job, doesn't mean that Ashley will appoint anyone decent as his replacement.

[ewerk 30620]

I'm not saying that he's going to retain Carver as head coach, of course he'll get a new man in for that role. However, we're not going to see a raft of new high calibre coaches brought in to support the new head coach.

 

Steve Stone had no coaching experience before joining us, Andy Woodman came from Charlton, John Carver came from the dole queue. We don't have a history under Ashley of recruiting qualified support coaches, that's my point.

[The Fish 10858]

I'm not saying that he's going to retain Carver as head coach, of course he'll get a new man in for that role. However, we're not going to see a raft of new high calibre coaches brought in to support the new head coach.

 

Steve Stone had no coaching experience before joining us, Andy Woodman came from Charlton, John Carver came from the dole queue. We don't have a history under Ashley of recruiting qualified support coaches, that's my point.

 

So you honestly believe we'll bring in a new coach, but keep Carver, Woodman, Stone et al?

[The Fish 10858]

Woodman etc weren't at the club prior to Ashley but at the point he arrived we had fat sam and his multitude of coaches and technical people so I'm quite certain we will have had more coaching staff then.

And just because it's as obvious as the kebab meat on Carvers face that he's not up to the job, doesn't mean that Ashley will appoint anyone decent as his replacement.

Why wouldn't he?

[David Kelly 1245]

Why wouldn't he?

I'm yet to fully understand any of his reasonings but I'm just going along with the historical facts. Other than Keegan, he's shown no desire at all to appoint a decent manager. Edited April 29, 2015 by David Kelly

[ewerk 30620]

 

So you honestly believe we'll bring in a new coach, but keep Carver, Woodman, Stone et al?

 

Absolutely. They have contracts until 2020 and I can't see him wanting to pay them off despite the fact that it wouldn't be incredibly expensive to do so. I can see a new head coach bringing in his own No.2 but that's about it.

[The Fish 10858]

I'm yet to fully understand any of his reasonings but I'm just going along with the historical facts. Other than Keegan, he's shown no desire at all to appoint a decent manager.

 

I think this is an important point.

 

He appointed a manager that he thought would bring his targets to fruition. He'll do the same this time. Which is why he'll not stick with Carver and, as he did with Pardew, he'll bring in some new coaches.

 

Going off historical facts he got rid of a manager that he didn't think would provide Premier League survival, at the cost he was willing to pay, amid the restrictions he put in place.

 

He then brought in one that would, and employed the coaches that came with him.

 

 

So why wouldn't he do that, this time?

 

The difference is, we want Galtier; the Champions League chasing manager of St Etiene or Thomas Tuchel because we have ambition beyond mere survival. He doesn't. We'll get a better coach than Carver because then the risk is zero and the cost doesn't go up that much either.

[ewerk 30620]

 

He then brought in one that would, and employed the coaches that came with him.

 

 

Woodman aside, who else did Pardew bring with him?

[The Fish 10858]

 

Absolutely. They have contracts until 2020 and I can't see him wanting to pay them off despite the fact that it wouldn't be incredibly expensive to do so. I can see a new head coach bringing in his own No.2 but that's about it.

 

I reckon Carver will go. Woodman too probably. My thinking behind that is both are "passionate"* and likely to take umbrage when the new Head Coach comes in with ideas like "tactics" and "game management".

 

 

 

 

 

*stroppy arseholes

[David Kelly 1245]

I think this is an important point.

 

He appointed a manager that he thought would bring his targets to fruition. He'll do the same this time. Which is why he'll not stick with Carver and, as he did with Pardew, he'll bring in some new coaches.

 

Going off historical facts he got rid of a manager that he didn't think would provide Premier League survival, at the cost he was willing to pay, amid the restrictions he put in place.

 

He then brought in one that would, and employed the coaches that came with him.

 

 

So why wouldn't he do that, this time?

 

The difference is, we want Galtier; the Champions League chasing manager of St Etiene or Thomas Tuchel because we have ambition beyond mere survival. He doesn't. We'll get a better coach than Carver because then the risk is zero and the cost doesn't go up that much either.

But you're suggesting that he'll bring in a manager/coach that can improve our players. This isn't something he's done before. Of course his current choice of Carver is actually having a negative effect and that's more of an exception than a rule, but it's not like his other choices have a track record of imrpoving the players we have. Hence the term Pardewed.

[ewerk 30620]

They're both in need of a job though, I can't see them going without being pushed.

[The Fish 10858]

But you're suggesting that he'll bring in a manager/coach that can improve our players. This isn't something he's done before. Of course his current choice of Carver is actually having a negative effect and that's more of an exception than a rule, but it's not like his other choices have a track record of imrpoving the players we have. Hence the term Pardewed.

I'm suggesting he'll bring in a coach that will get more out of these players than Carver or Pardew.

 

Another couple of points; He has "chosen" Carver simply because they're deferring the appointment of the new Head Coach until the end of the season, because they couldn't imagine Carver losing 7 games in a row. I don't think anyone could.

 

And it's hard to judge his "other choices" from a sample size of one.

 

Pardew did actually improve (or at least get the most out of) limited players like Perch, because that's what he's used to. Limited grafting players.

 

They're both in need of a job though, I can't see them going without being pushed.

Woodman will be able to get another job fairly quickly. Krul has performed well (on the whole) and that'll be seen as a reflection of Woodman when he goes for new jobs.

 

Carver's brand is damaged at the minute, but that damage will have taken it's toll on a proud man so I think he'll want to put this behind him.

[ewerk 30620]

If Woodman was going to go then he would have went with Pardew. Given that his son is still at the club he'll be in no rush to go anywhere.

 

I guess we'll find out who was right in July.

[The Fish 10858]

If Woodman was going to go then he would have went with Pardew. Given that his son is still at the club he'll be in no rush to go anywhere.

 

I guess we'll find out who was right in July.

Good point actually. I'd forgotten about Freddy.

[David Kelly 1245]

I'm suggesting he'll bring in a coach that will get more out of these players than Carver or Pardew.

 

Another couple of points; He has "chosen" Carver simply because they're deferring the appointment of the new Head Coach until the end of the season, because they couldn't imagine Carver losing 7 games in a row. I don't think anyone could.

 

And it's hard to judge his "other choices" from a sample size of one.

 

Pardew did actually improve (or at least get the most out of) limited players like Perch, because that's what he's used to. Limited grafting players.

 

Woodman will be able to get another job fairly quickly. Krul has performed well (on the whole) and that'll be seen as a reflection of Woodman when he goes for new jobs.

 

Carver's brand is damaged at the minute, but that damage will have taken it's toll on a proud man so I think he'll want to put this behind him.

I think you're crazy if you don't think from the outset there was a reasonable chance Carver could have been given the job full time on basis that he's cheap and easy. It's only because he's proven to be a monumental fuckwit that the chance is going. I also take issue with your assertion that no one could have expected Carver to be so bad because a lot of us did (myself and Gloomy for a start).

You say Pardew is a sample size of one but is he? Keegan, Hughton, Kinnear, Hughton, Shearer, Hughton, Pardew. I don't see how any of those choices were made with a view to having someone who could better coach the players. There might have been the idea that some of them could inspire the players more but there's zero evidence of any great deal of coaching ability there. As much as I love Keegan, it was his passion not his techincal expertise that made him a success. And throughout all of the lows under Pardew, Ashley was quite content to let him continue to do what he was doing had he not resigned. Why then will he think he needs to improve on that now?

[The Fish 10858]

You're misunderstanding me. When Pardew left I was, say, 85% certain that we'd get a new head coach in and it wouldn't be Carver. I said it would take something impressive in the final run of games for Carver to get the job full time. You and Gloomy felt it was closer to, I dunno, 75% in his favour because he's cheap and easy? I felt that was defeatist and overly negative and you felt my view was daft and overly optimistic. I maintain that we'll get a new head coach and I'd wager you now agree?

 

Also, I never, ever, said that people weren't expecting Carver to be shit, I'm fairly certain I said that nobody predicted he'd be this bad. i.e. 7 losses in a row-bad. I can't see anyone previously predicting that?

 

Finally, I'm not sure why you're fixating on "improving the players"? I've said that the new coach will improve the performances of the players, not that they'd necessarily improve the players themselves? I said that because they couldn't be worse. We're clueless in defence and set-piece situations and I believe a new Head Coach will address those issues at least.

[David Kelly 1245]

You're misunderstanding me. When Pardew left I was, say, 85% certain that we'd get a new head coach in and it wouldn't be Carver. I said it would take something impressive in the final run of games for Carver to get the job full time. You and Gloomy felt it was closer to, I dunno, 75% in his favour because he's cheap and easy? I felt that was defeatist and overly negative and you felt my view was daft and overly optimistic. I maintain that we'll get a new head coach and I'd wager you now agree?

 

Also, I never, ever, said that people weren't expecting Carver to be shit, I'm fairly certain I said that nobody predicted he'd be this bad. i.e. 7 losses in a row-bad. I can't see anyone previously predicting that?

 

Finally, I'm not sure why you're fixating on "improving the players"? I've said that the new coach will improve the performances of the players, not that they'd necessarily improve the players themselves? I said that because they couldn't be worse. We're clueless in defence and set-piece situations and I believe a new Head Coach will address those issues at least.

Tbh I never thought there was that much of a chance Carver would get the job permanently because I always thought we'd slide down the league under him. After the Hull win I thought we'd probably done enough to stay up as I didn't expect the results that Leicester and Hull have just had and I did think we'd pick up a few more points (after the completely abject performances recently I'm far from convinced we'll get any more points and I'm back to fearing relegation is a distinct possibility). I now think it's even more probable we'll get a new manager (although I'm still not ruling Carver out) I'm just not convinced it will be anyone better than the manager we all thought was fucking hopeless. You seemed to be convinced there would be a chance in emphasis that would see a new style of continental coach employed that has some idea of tactics and the ability to improve players. If you're saying now that all you expect is someone better than Carver then fair enough. I see that as no more reason to be remotely optimistic about that though. All I can see is another relegation battle if we stay up.

Btw I'm pretty sure that there were people, who were dismissed as being overly emo, who suggested very early on under Carver that we might not win another game this season. I was one of them personally but I think there was some out there who are no doubt feeling pretty smug now.

[BLACKANDWHITEGEORDIE 0]

If McLaren does get the job of Head Coach he will want a fresh start and could bring in a number of coaches from Holland, where he has excellent contacts.

[The Fish 10858]

Tbh I never thought there was that much of a chance Carver would get the job permanently because I always thought we'd slide down the league under him. After the Hull win I thought we'd probably done enough to stay up as I didn't expect the results that Leicester and Hull have just had and I did think we'd pick up a few more points (after the completely abject performances recently I'm far from convinced we'll get any more points and I'm back to fearing relegation is a distinct possibility). I now think it's even more probable we'll get a new manager (although I'm still not ruling Carver out) I'm just not convinced it will be anyone better than the manager we all thought was fucking hopeless. You seemed to be convinced there would be a chance in emphasis that would see a new style of continental coach employed that has some idea of tactics and the ability to improve players. If you're saying now that all you expect is someone better than Carver then fair enough. I see that as no more reason to be remotely optimistic about that though. All I can see is another relegation battle if we stay up.

Btw I'm pretty sure that there were people, who were dismissed as being overly emo, who suggested very early on under Carver that we might not win another game this season. I was one of them personally but I think there was some out there who are no doubt feeling pretty smug now.

 

 

We have won.

 

I was (and am) convinced that when you look at what Ashley wants, what he's prepared to spend to get it, it all points to a continental coach.

 

English managers want control over the transfers, they come at a premium and they're better known so don't need the spotlight.

Continental coaches are more likely to be used to a DoF, they're cheaper and they'll look at Newcastle as a great stepping stone to a bigger club.

[PTN 0]

If McLaren does get the job of Head Coach he will want a fresh start and could bring in a number of coaches from Holland, where he has excellent contacts.

 

I would like to say I agree with you, but I cannot see anything other than Carver and Stone being on the coaching staff next year. I very much doubt the club will invest in both squad and coaching staff.

 

But maybe this is why theyre so keen in McClaren? He could've told them that he can bring such and such coach with him too? I live in hope...

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3898]

I am still not convinced Carver will not get the job full time.

[PTN 0]

I am still not convinced Carver will not get the job full time.

 

I keep having doubts, but it would be absolute suicide to give him the job full time. He can't use the injuries line as an excuse in my opinion. But that is not an excuse for his baffling tactics, and substitutions.

 

Nice nickname btw. I stayed in the same hotel as Kevin Carr for a couple of weeks whilst in Gran Canaria. Very friendly guy

[trooper 940]

I reckon with all the stuff with A O going on he might just go with Carver as far as the club have said out of a list of 90 odd applicants they have nobody lined up.

[David Kelly 1245]

We have won.

 

I was (and am) convinced that when you look at what Ashley wants, what he's prepared to spend to get it, it all points to a continental coach.

 

English managers want control over the transfers, they come at a premium and they're better known so don't need the spotlight.

Continental coaches are more likely to be used to a DoF, they're cheaper and they'll look at Newcastle as a great stepping stone to a bigger club.

I know we have but you said no one could have expected a run of seven defeats on the bounce but those people predicted worse than that is what I'm getting at.

 

I did think that a foreign coach was a possibility for the very reasons you suggest but my fear was always that Ashley hasn't got a fucking clue who these people are so he'd revert back to type of picking a known quantity and someone who he things can be controlled. It's appearing more likely now that if Carver is replaced it won't be for the type we're hoping for (even considering our limited hopes these days).

I always go back to fact that people making the decisions (Ashley/Charnley) have no experience or knowlege of football. If Ashley cared at all about the football he would have appointed a cheif exec who was up to the job. The appointment of penfold spoke volumes.