Only in America

[The Fish 10849]

Whether the kid is white or black, if you have a gun (whether it's real or not) and refuse to obey a police officer then expect to be shot. Unfortunately at 12 years old this isn't always apparent.

 

Christ almighty.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

 

Christ almighty.

 

 

I was thinking something similar myself when I read that.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

Whether the kid is white or black, if you have a gun (whether it's real or not) and refuse to obey a police officer then expect to be shot. Unfortunately at 12 years old this isn't always apparent.

 

At what age would it be ok for the child not to expect to be shot?

[ewerk 30545]

 

Christ almighty.

 

Okay. To clarify, I was referring to this situation. Whereby if you've spent the last ten minutes pointing a gun at passersby and the police arrive and you refuse to raise your hands after being told to three times then expect to be shot.

[ewerk 30545]

 

At what age would it be ok for the child not to expect to be shot?

 

As the officer stated at the time of the shooting, he believed the kid to be around 20. He didn't shoot a child that he knew to be 12.

[The Fish 10849]

 

As the officer stated at the time of the shooting, he believed the kid to be around 20. He didn't shoot a child that he knew to be 12.

 

It doesn't sound like he took the time to find out.

[ewerk 30545]

The kid was told three times to put his hand up and then went for his 'gun'. It's a horrible incident but the police officer had a split second decision to make and given the circumstances it's hard to criticise him too much.

 

The child probably had no idea what was happening at the time but as a police officer faced with that situation, hesitation can cost you your life.

Edited November 27, 2014 by ewerk

[The Fish 10849]

The kid was told three times to put his hand up and then went for his 'gun'. It's a horrible incident but the police officer had a split second decision to make and given the circumstances it's hard to criticise him too much.

 

The child probably had no idea what was happening at the time but as a police officer faced with that situation, hesitation can cost you your life.

I fear that in your effort to take the contrary position*, you're missing the point. The rozzer wouldn't be so trigger happy if the gun culture in America didn't exist. Certainly in the UK the epmhasis is on exhausting all possible avenues before deadly force is taken.

 

When that is not the case (the Brazilian backpacker e.g.) the furore is huge and action is taken. In this case, and the case in Ferguson, fuck all will happen and the right wing will yet again manufacture strawmen, incite fear and do all in their power to blame anything but the gun culture.

 

If that kid was playing with a toy gun in Germany he'd still be alive, in France, in Italy, in Ireland, basically any "developed" country other than America or Mexico. The only place I feel that your final point should have merit, is a war zone, not a kids play ground.

 

 

 

 

*in an honest attempt to get the debate going, I believe

[ewerk 30545]

I agree with you entirely that the American gun culture is to blame for this death. In America the police face much more gun crime and are therefore justified in believing that they faced a real threat. Whereas over here the policeman may have had a bit more skepticism as to whether the gun was real.

 

This is entirely different to the case in Ferguson. In this case the police officer was informed that there was a man waving a gun around and saw him reaching for it and had a decision to make. In Ferguson the police officer had much more time to think about it and much less reason to shoot.

[The Fish 10849]

So the point is, given the deaths and tragedies that are an effect of the culture of the country, it's time to change the culture.

 

Australia did it. Hell, America have changed their culture before, they can fucking do it again.

[ewerk 30545]

Unfortunately less than half their population want more gun control. It looks crazy to the rest of the world but that's just how they are.

[The Fish 10849]

Unfortunately less than half their population want more gun control. It looks crazy to the rest of the world but that's just how they are.

 

Same was true about slavery. Paradigm shifts are possible. It just takes brave people to do it.

 

There's no reasonable argument for the number of firearms in the hands of unlicensed, untrained civilians.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

The kid was told three times to put his hand up and then went for his 'gun'. It's a horrible incident but the police officer had a split second decision to make and given the circumstances it's hard to criticise him too much.

 

The child probably had no idea what was happening at the time but as a police officer faced with that situation, hesitation can cost you your life.

 

 

Hhmm not sure I agree.

 

Firstly Fuck off with the 20 year old shit that's just the racist prick covering his own arse.

 

Secondly "went for his gun" is a dodgy phrase does he mean the kid didn't have hold of the gun then went for it or did he actually have hold of the gun.

 

Third if the copper wasn't such a racist gung ho cunt he may have shouted "what you got there kid in a nice manner before backing the kid into a corner and scaring the shit out of him so much he didn't know what to do or how to respond.

 

Fourth where are the rules of engagement or the professional sense of duty when the first action is to have a weapon drawn and ready on a kid.

 

This policeman was a fucking cunt who has signed on to "protect and serve" and taken that as protecting himself against niggers.

 

America is fucking rotten to the core.

[NJS 4377]

Unfortunately less than half their population want more gun control. It looks crazy to the rest of the world but that's just how they are.

I've seen polls which suggest slim majorities favour it but if all the moron states keep returning senators who don't then it isn't going to happen.

 

Given the incidents that have happened its hard to imagine something that would change it.

[ewerk 30545]

 

 

Hhmm not sure I agree.

 

Firstly Fuck off with the 20 year old shit that's just the racist prick covering his own arse.

 

Secondly "went for his gun" is a dodgy phrase does he mean the kid didn't have hold of the gun then went for it or did he actually have hold of the gun.

 

Third if the copper wasn't such a racist gung ho cunt he may have shouted "what you got there kid in a nice manner before backing the kid into a corner and scaring the shit out of him so much he didn't know what to do or how to respond.

 

Fourth where are the rules of engagement or the professional sense of duty when the first action is to have a weapon drawn and ready on a kid.

 

This policeman was a fucking cunt who has signed on to "protect and serve" and taken that as protecting himself against niggers.

 

America is fucking rotten to the core.

 

 

You're always a joy to have a conversation with. Try toning down the aggression, then you can talk with the grown ups.

[Howay 12496]

So the point is, given the deaths and tragedies that are an effect of the culture of the country, it's time to change the culture.

 

Australia did it. Hell, America have changed their culture before, they can fucking do it again.

I agree fully but a lot of Americans don't want that discussion. I've lived here for coming up to 4 year now and I just keep quiet on this issue a lot of the time as people that come across as rational have very odd views about guns. The problem is the NRA have huge lobbying power and are able to bully and pressure any attempt to change gun laws with their massive member base (Which iirc despite not the largest is the most active).

Now it has reached a point of when does that change happen? what would be a tipping point? We had Dunblane, the nation was horrified and we were okay with strict gun laws. Australia had the Port Arthur massacre and they likewise were okay with tighter gun laws. America have had multiple college shootings, and one in a fucking primary school and it hasn't changed much, in fact the NRA have at times took the opposite stance and declared that if more guns were in the equation it would be safer.

It is similar at times to taxes and health care, in that there is so much misinformation about it. Apparently the NHS basically gives up on people past a certain age and will no longer really treat them, something I've been told multiple times by people in good careers before I told them that my 92 year old terminally ill grandfather had gotten brilliant round the clock care (albeit in part down to McMillan charity). They were still convinced by what Fox had told them on the matter despite a British citizen telling them it's wrong. I'm not trying to turn this into a health care issue btw, just saying that Fox and other conservative stations hold a fuck ton of power here and the political divide is far larger than it is back home.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

 

 

You're always a joy to have a conversation with. Try toning down the aggression, then you can talk with the grown ups.

 

And you're always a condescending prick but I uderstand that's your personality.

 

Forgive me for being passionate about my view that policement shouldn't shoot 12 year old kids.

[The Fish 10849]

@@Howay I don't think an incident would be a tipping point. I think a politician with nothing to lose, rallying a few more to their cause could change things. Never been a better President to push it through. But there's never been a worse time to push through liberal laws (hyperbole before people bring up Lincoln or whatever.)

 

If I was Obama I'd launch a whole stack of incredibly unpopular but ultimately worthy laws just so the Republicans have to come out in favour of tobacco linked cancer, in favour of gun deaths, in favour of racism etc. because fuck those idiots.

[Howay 12496]

Aye, it's a rare thing finding one powerful enough with nothing to lose. I fully agree with you btw, I want rid of the things and say as much if anyone asks me my opinion on them.

The Obama point is a good one on the politician with nothing to lose point and I hope he does throw in a lot of laws that need to be forced through because the divide here is becoming ridiculous. When Obama pushed for the Obamacare I heard republicans saying things like "if that shit goes through I'm moving to Canada" Aye that's it avoid your country pushing for public healthcare by moving to one that has it (Democrats said the same about if Bush gets a 2nd term but it makes a lot more fucking sense for them to say it).

I fear some horrible cunt like Chris Christie is going to win the 2016 race and we'll see mass repealing of a lot of Obama's work, I genuinely hope Obama does some anti-gun bill like the immigration bill he has just forced through regardless.

[ewerk 30545]

He hasn't got nothing to lose though. Trying to drive through any sort of controversial reforms at this point would damage the Democrats at the next election.

[Howay 12496]

That's why they're a real rarity. I guess it depends if he wants to make a big splash and accomplish more in his presidency or try and preserve the Democrat vote, I'm sure preserving the Democrat vote will be what wins out though.

[The Fish 10849]

He hasn't got nothing to lose though. Trying to drive through any sort of controversial reforms at this point would damage the Democrats at the next election.

Democrats are fucked anyway.

[Toonpack 9385]

Just to stir the pot

 

We'd better ban booze, killed 2/3rds as many people in the UK (per UK Gov) as guns kill folks in the USA, given the US population is 5 times what ours is, that would mean booze is way more dangerous than guns.

 

BTW Fish, your previous stats table is wrong, all violent death in the US is 4.7/100,000 of population (as per the FBI) so guns can't kill 10.2/100000 (and 33% of US violent deaths do not involve firearms)

 

(Switzerland's violent death rate is 0.7/100,000 your table says guns kill 3.84/100,000)

 

And from http://irbplayerwelfare.com/pdfs/CI_Risk_Assessment_EN.pdf (I was looking for sports safety stuff)

 

Motorbikes in the UK killed 190/100,000 of those who used them in 2005

 

If you work in Belgium, Ireland, Canada, Austria, France, Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal you are more likely to get killed at work than you are to be shot by a gun in the USA. In fact twice or three times as likely in Spain and Portugal (8.9/100,000) !!!!

 

In fact if you consider owning a gun as "participation" there's tons more stuff more dangerous, Gymnastics being really, really nasty (twice as dangerous than gun ownership) as is being a UK pedestrian, about the same as US gun deaths.

 

Bizarrely you are also 13 times more likely to suffer death or a catastrophic injury playing Rugby in Fiji than in the UK,

 

UK cocks are more dangerous than US guns, four times as many women die in pregnancy 12/100,000 than folks get gunned down in the USA. (well they did in 2005)

 

Oh and the UK had 700,000-ish more violent crimes than the whole of the US last year 1.9mill v 1.2 mill, There's more of it but it doesn't involve guns much so that's OK.

 

There are more non firearm murders in the US than there are total murders in the UK, if you're going to murder your going to find a way.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Toonpack

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

Just to stir the pot

 

We'd better ban booze, killed 2/3rds as many people in the UK (per UK Gov) as guns kill folks in the USA, given the US population is 5 times what ours is, that would mean booze is way more dangerous than guns.

 

BTW Fish, your previous stats table is wrong, all violent death in the US is 4.7/100,000 of population (as per the FBI) so guns can't kill 10.2/100000 (and 33% of US violent deaths do not involve firearms)

 

(Switzerland's violent death rate is 0.7/100,000 your table says guns kill 3.84/100,000)

 

And from http://irbplayerwelfare.com/pdfs/CI_Risk_Assessment_EN.pdf (I was looking for sports safety stuff)

 

Motorbikes in the UK killed 190/100,000 of those who used them in 2005

 

If you work in Belgium, Ireland, Canada, Austria, France, Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal you are more likely to get killed at work than you are to be shot by a gun in the USA. In fact twice or three times as likely in Spain and Portugal (8.9/100,000) !!!!

 

In fact if you consider owning a gun as "participation" there's tons more stuff more dangerous, Gymnastics being really, really nasty (twice as dangerous than gun ownership) as is being a UK pedestrian, about the same as US gun deaths.

 

Bizarrely you are also 13 times more likely to suffer death or a catastrophic injury playing Rugby in Fiji than in the UK,

 

UK cocks are more dangerous than US guns, four times as many women die in pregnancy 12/100,000 than folks get gunned down in the USA. (well they did in 2005)

 

Oh and the UK had 700,000-ish more violent crimes than the whole of the US last year 1.9mill v 1.2 mill, There's more of it but it doesn't involve guns much so that's OK.

 

There are more non firearm murders in the US than there are total murders in the UK, if you're going to murder your going to find a way.

 

 

If you wanted to look stupid you could have done so with a much shorter post.

 

Do you know the difference between what is classed as a violent crime in the Uk versus what the US regards as a violent crime?

[Howmanheyman 33117]