Politics

[Rayvin 5311]

1 hour ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I'm a little surprised that the reaction in this forum that the solution to a 20 year occupation of a foreign country is more US imperialism 

 

I also think that considering the situation over there, where there is obviously very little support for the occupying forces, the evacuation has gone as well as they could have hoped

 

The solution was competent and robust withdrawal to give the remaining civilian and military forces time to organise themselves to oppose a bloodthirsty and murderous regime.

 

All I'm getting from this withdrawal is arrogant, imperialist sentiments that the lives of the local people don't matter in the slightest. That's what is so enraging about it. We went in without a care or thought about these people, occupied the country for 20 years, and then threw them to the wolves. Its just disgusting.

[Dr Gloom 22186]

1 hour ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I'm a little surprised that the reaction in this forum that the solution to a 20 year occupation of a foreign country is more US imperialism 

 

I also think that considering the situation over there, where there is obviously very little support for the occupying forces, the evacuation has gone as well as they could have hoped

It’s not as simple as saying you are either for or against “imperialism”. 
 

I don’t think it’s wise for the west to invade countries thousands of miles away to impose our values. But once that decision to go in has been made don’t you have a duty to the people you liberated? A responsibility to leave slowly and carefully?
 

The exit couldn’t have been worse and my heart goes out to all the poor people stuck there. Democracy replaced overnight with sharia law, executions, girls suddenly told they can’t go to school, women arriving to work at jobs they no longer are allowed to do, forced into marriage, taliban fighters patrolling the streets armed with ak47s, It’s a cluster fuck

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

36 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The solution was competent and robust withdrawal to give the remaining civilian and military forces time to organise themselves to oppose a bloodthirsty and murderous regime.

 

 

Theyve been training the Afghan Army for 20 years and spending 81 billion quid on that and equipment in the process. It's ridiculous to think another few months would have made any difference

After Trump signed the deal with the Taliban in September the only choices were what has happened or go back to war with the Taliban at a huge cost to lives and money.

The situation is undoubtedly shit, but there is a lot of naive wishful thinking going on here. There is no good solution

[Alex 35616]

Even with all that the Taliban controlled the hinterland. 

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

36 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

 

The exit couldn’t have been worse and my heart goes out to all the poor people stuck there. Democracy replaced overnight with sharia law, executions, girls suddenly told they can’t go to school, women arriving to work at jobs they no longer are allowed to do, forced into marriage, taliban fighters patrolling the streets armed with ak47s, It’s a cluster fuck

Of course it could have been worse, they could have been full out conflict with the Taliban. So far, a negotiated withdrawal with the Taliban is by far the best option.

Anything else would have been a slaughter

[Rayvin 5311]

Just gonna have to agree to disagree, I guess.

 

Still maintain that this has made the US look very weak, can't see any other angle on that. Maybe it was inevitable as you think, but I'm having a really hard time believing that this couldn't have been handled far better.

 

Still, the US is in decline. Not sure what else we can expect at this point.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Rayvin

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

59 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Just gonna have to agree to disagree, I guess.

 

Still maintain that this has made the US look very weak, can't see any other angle on that. Maybe it was inevitable as you think, but I'm having a really hard time believing that this couldn't have been handled far better.

 

Still, the US is in decline. Not sure what else we can expect at this point.

Makes the US look weak is just blindly following the MSM narrative, to put it in your terms. Why would you want the US to look strong, as what that means in reality killing more brown people

 

Obama and Trump both should have taken the troops out but didn't have the guts. I've not got overly much time for Biden but he has taken an unpopular but correct decision

[Rayvin 5311]

I have strong concerns about China being a far worse global issue than the US ever has been - and the US stepping back from the world stage has emboldened people like Bolsonaro with all the consequences that has had for climate change. We need a strong US until Europe or some more mature power can replace it. Surely the alternative is that we go back to cold and hot wars between major powers.

 

I don't like US imperialism or aggression, but I'd support one world government style solutions to problems, and with the US shrinking into the background that just feels further away than ever. That's not really the topic here of course, but it's my concern.

 

And my rage about Afghanistan concerns how little they appear to care about the brown people they've just left behind.

 

EDIT - will also add that this decision seems pretty popular with the yanks, which is I expect why it's been done. He's made himself look weak by how terribly it's gone, but the actual decision seemed to be welcomed.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Rayvin

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

Good grief, you want more of the US being the world's policeman? American foreign policy has been a complete shitshow since WW2, and every intervention they have made has been a disaster. 

[Renton 22015]

5 hours ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Theyve been training the Afghan Army for 20 years and spending 81 billion quid on that and equipment in the process. It's ridiculous to think another few months would have made any difference

After Trump signed the deal with the Taliban in September the only choices were what has happened or go back to war with the Taliban at a huge cost to lives and money.

The situation is undoubtedly shit, but there is a lot of naive wishful thinking going on here. There is no good solution

 

Starmer even said last week we couldn't stay in Afghanistan indefinitely. I'd like to know why the fuck not? The west have given up more than just Afghanistan here. We've sold our core values down the swanney, and with it effectively murdered thousands of people through no fault of their own. If we don't believe in our own values, if we have such disregard to morality and the human suffering we cause, I think this is the beginning of the end for us. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Renton

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

I'm genuinely baffled as to why you think its a good idea  for the US to indefinitely occupy a foreign country. You can't bomb a country, especially one like Afghanistan into being a Liberal democracy

 

We aren't the good guys here

Edited August 28, 2021 by spongebob toonpants

[Dr Gloom 22186]

3 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I'm genuinely baffled as to why you think its a good idea  for the US to indefinitely occupy a foreign country. You can't bomb a country, especially one like Afghanistan into being a Liberal democracy

 

We aren't the good guys here

Tell to that to the Afghanis so desperate to get out, so fearful for their future under the taliban, that they were clinging to US planes as they took off. 

[Rayvin 5311]

1 hour ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Good grief, you want more of the US being the world's policeman? American foreign policy has been a complete shitshow since WW2, and every intervention they have made has been a disaster. 

 

I want International political consensus to achieve things, eventually evolving into the elimination of the nation state entirely - the vehicles for delivering this are breaking down though. I don't want the US to be world police specifically, but I do want someone to do it - and I don't think we're quite ready for a real consensus yet.

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I want International political consensus to achieve things, eventually evolving into the elimination of the nation state entirely p

That's a laudable aim, but isn't and hasn't ever been the point of US foreign policy, here or anywhere else

[Rayvin 5311]

True, but the US retreating from the world stage like this is going to create a vacuum of power and encourage countries like China to go on the take. The whole thing is worrying to me, I'm not personally of the opinion that Western civilisation is all bad and I fear for people elsewhere. Maybe that's arrogant but it is what it is.

 

I do feel that we had a responsibility to Afghanistan after everything we did, and I do not think anything we have done here meets that responsibility. At least we're taking refugees I suppose.

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

20 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Tell to that to the Afghanis so desperate to get out, so fearful for their future under the taliban, that they were clinging to US planes as they took off. 

Again, helping Afghans was never the point of this war. Of course these pictures are upsetting, but its like people can't look beyond the media reporting, which always supports the war drumbeat and actually see whats going on

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

True, but the US retreating from the world stage like this is going to create a vacuum of power and encourage countries like China to go on the take. The whole thing is worrying to me, I'm not personally of the opinion that Western civilisation is all bad and I fear for people elsewhere. Maybe that's arrogant but it is what it is.

 

I do feel that we had a responsibility to Afghanistan after everything we did, and I do not think anything we have done here meets that responsibility. At least we're taking refugees I suppose.

China is already well on the way to be being the world Superpower but they are doing it financially rather than by invasion. They are lending money hand over fist to developing nations for modernisation and infrastructure, which countries will never be able to pay back.

They will then take payment in natural resources and and achieve an economic stranglehold that way.

 

[Rayvin 5311]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

China is already well on the way to be being the world Superpower but they are doing it financially rather than by invasion. They are lending money hand over fist to developing nations for modernisation and infrastructure, which countries will never be able to pay back.

They will then take payment in natural resources and and achieve an economic stranglehold that way.

 

 

True, but they'll have to invade Taiwan if they want that back. Which they do. I'd estimate within 10 years. And don't forget they have a populace full of raving nationalists. Expansionism may well become a bigger part of their plan once the US declines.

 

Either way though, I don't want China to be the world super power. I still think far worse than the US. Xi Jinping has been more and more aggressive and recent times in both speeches and policy. Would far prefer Europe to take over again, possibly with support from Russia in a post-Putin era. Either way, China replacing the US is not good news in my book.

[Dr Gloom 22186]

8 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Again, helping Afghans was never the point of this war. Of course these pictures are upsetting, but its like people can't look beyond the media reporting, which always supports the war drumbeat and actually see whats going on

I don’t think many of us on here supported the initial invasion or are naive enough to suggest we invaded to free Afghani people from oppression. 

But people were literally tying themselves to planes to escape the Taliban. It’s pretty obvious who they thought were the good guys. To give them 20 years of freedom then take it all away overnight is a massive betrayal. On a human level I don’t know how to feel anything else for these pour souls. Can you imagine having your life and all your freedoms taken away overnight? It’s absolutely brutal man, the way it’s been handled. 

[Renton 22015]

Every century things change. The century of American dominance is now over, and China will take the reigns. This is obviously not good from our pov (liberals, freedom lovers, socialists), but there it is. I am personally staggered at the rate of the West's decline though, and the last few weeks have underlined it in bright yellow highlighter.

 

I'm 51 now, so my stake in the game is already waning. I genuinely fear for my kids and all those of that generation though. Hopefully I'm wrong and just being  toontastic fanny. And I massively respect spongebob, but quite depressed by some of his posts on this. Feels like inevitable acceptance.

 

Oh, and I'm in St Helliers right now, waiting for the results of my PCR test to see if I'm allowed to eat in a restaurant. What  world we live in. 

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

Every century things change. The century of American dominance is now over, and China will take the reigns. This is obviously not good from our pov (liberals, freedom lovers, socialists), but there it is. I am personally staggered at the rate of the West's decline though, and the last few weeks have underlined it in bright yellow highlighter.

 

I'm 51 now, so my stake in the game is already waning. I genuinely fear for my kids and all those of that generation though. Hopefully I'm wrong and just being  toontastic fanny. And I massively respect spongebob, but quite depressed by some of his posts on this. Feels like inevitable acceptance.

 

 

For the longest time I thought the West was on the right side of history, and I was hopeful that as a country we were heading inevitably leftwards. 

But look where we are. We've already lost

 

Good luck with the test

Edited August 28, 2021 by spongebob toonpants

[Gemmill 46093]

https://g.co/kgs/bULqPC

 

In case your test comes back wrong. 

[Renton 22015]

12 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

For the longest time I thought the West was on the right side of history, and I was hopeful that as a country we were heading inevitably leftwards. 

But look where we are. We've already lost

 

Good luck with the test

 

Just got it now, first time I've passed by getting a negative! Waiting for mrs Rent's result now, then we're set for a normal family break, hopefully.

 

Not sure why Gemmill has posted a link to a London takeaway mind. 🤷‍♂️

[Gemmill 46093]

Just shut up and enjoy your meal. 

[spongebob toonpants 4155]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/29/joe-biden-afghanistan-new-york-times-washington-post

 

Fairly close to where I am