Politics

[Renton 22050]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

From a tactical perspective though, we'd be unlikely to get an actual referendum in place without winning power. And if we actually managed to get a coalition government into power, I'm tempted to say we shouldn't bother with the referendum and just make it law. Boris Johnson style.

 

Absolutely no. This has to be properly democratically mandated, and as the figures show, would be a formality anyway. 

[Rayvin 5349]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Absolutely no. This has to be properly democratically mandated, and as the figures show, would be a formality anyway. 

 

I wouldn't risk it on a referendum myself. I'd put it straight into law on the basis that we would be able to demonstrate that "a majority of voters voted for parties which supported PR". Force feed the Tories the same lines they fed us.

 

This country, I'm sorry to say, is too poorly informed to be trusted with referendums.

[Renton 22050]

28 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I wouldn't risk it on a referendum myself. I'd put it straight into law on the basis that we would be able to demonstrate that "a majority of voters voted for parties which supported PR". Force feed the Tories the same lines they fed us.

 

This country, I'm sorry to say, is too poorly informed to be trusted with referendums.

 

Lots of issues with that. Firstly, you are more likely to get a pro-PR coalition majority in a GE if it's subject to a confirmatory vote. Secondly, imo the first term in parliament should be about determining the type of PR we want, and that should be ratified by the electorate. Thirdly, the consequences of adopting PR are much simpler to understand than leaving the EU. Fourthly, this referendum could be much better planned with adequate safeguards against lies and Russian interference put in. And finally, debasing yourself to the level of the tories by removing the democratic process is not a good look and frankly is ironic and self-defeating.

 

[Alex 35664]

As I’ve said before it’s ripe for being sold to the electorate but Labour need to get 100% on board. When Johnson and the Tories oppose it the reaction needs to be - we want you to have your say, we want every vote to count, the establishment don’t want this because it’ll upset the status quo, this is the only way to effect real change. 

[Renton 22050]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

As I’ve said before it’s ripe for being sold to the electorate but Labour need to get 100% on board. When Johnson and the Tories oppose it the reaction needs to be - we want you to have your say, we want every vote to count, the establishment don’t want this because it’ll upset the status quo, this is the only way to effect real change. 

 

And this, relating to my first point, absolutely. 

[Rayvin 5349]

 

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Lots of issues with that. Firstly, you are more likely to get a pro-PR coalition majority in a GE if it's subject to a confirmatory vote. Secondly, imo the first term in parliament should be about determining the type of PR we want, and that should be ratified by the electorate. Thirdly, the consequences of adopting PR are much simpler to understand than leaving the EU. Fourthly, this referendum could be much better planned with adequate safeguards against lies and Russian interference put in. And finally, debasing yourself to the level of the tories by removing the democratic process is not a good look and frankly is ironic and self-defeating.

 

 

Just going to break this up in turn for ease:

 

1 - Why? Which demographic of pro PR voters is going to want it to be subject to a confirmatory vote? That's something you put in as a safety net to capture people who don't want PR but do want the other policies your party votes for. I don't understand how those people can exist as a demographic within any of the smaller parties, and surely we're talking about an absolute minority of Labour voters at this point.

 

2 - Why? Why does the electorate need to ratify it? I appreciate that this would be desirable in an informed and functioning democracy - but we aren't one. We're a basketcase of a democracy with near American levels of political ignorance. How easy would it be for the right to whip this up into some kind of assault on freedoms, make it another angle of the culture war, threaten everyone with socialism by stealth etc etc. We aren't equipped to fight these battles with the right, we lose them over and over again.

 

3 - That didn't seem to be the case at the last PR referendum wherein nobody understood how it worked. It also didn't seem that people understood how it worked when we were dealing with MEPs. Contrastingly, while it was a woeful oversimplification of the EU issue, "In or Out" was pretty straightforward.

 

4 - We both know it won't be. Who on earth are you trusting to pull that together? There is utterly no leadership in the progressive political wing of the country. None whatsoever.

 

If we lost this referendum, we'd lose the coalition the next time out as it would break down into petty squabbles and infighting - the Tories would win again as they're the only side that can demonstrate consistent unity, largely through their ability to compromise on everything except power. I really don't think it's worth the risk, and I would ask what the downside would be if we just put it into law? Who gets up in arms about it? What serious consequence could it realistically have? Johnson has already pissed all over the concerns we had about the same issues on Brexit and has sailed right through - why are we playing this with one hand tied behind our backs?

 

[Alex 35664]

 

[Renton 22050]

20 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

 

Just going to break this up in turn for ease:

 

1 - Why? Which demographic of pro PR voters is going to want it to be subject to a confirmatory vote? That's something you put in as a safety net to capture people who don't want PR but do want the other policies your party votes for. I don't understand how those people can exist as a demographic within any of the smaller parties, and surely we're talking about an absolute minority of Labour voters at this point. See Alex's post. Promising people they have a choice is much more appealing than dictating to them. 

 

2 - Why? Why does the electorate need to ratify it? I appreciate that this would be desirable in an informed and functioning democracy - but we aren't one. We're a basketcase of a democracy with near American levels of political ignorance. How easy would it be for the right to whip this up into some kind of assault on freedoms, make it another angle of the culture war, threaten everyone with socialism by stealth etc etc. We aren't equipped to fight these battles with the right, we lose them over and over again. Really? You don't think the electorate should have a say on the PR system that is introduced? You didn't say that about Brexit. This can't be done in detail beforehand in a GE, it will take a parliament to sort out and I for one want to have a say on the details, not just the notion.

 

3 - That didn't seem to be the case at the last PR referendum wherein nobody understood how it worked. It also didn't seem that people understood how it worked when we were dealing with MEPs. Contrastingly, while it was a woeful oversimplification of the EU issue, "In or Out" was pretty straightforward. That was for AV, and the incumbent party campaigned against it (can't even remember if Labour had a stance or not). This time round the incumbent coalition would be promoting it; even the tories support it 53% vs. 24% (according to that poll).

 

4 - We both know it won't be. Who on earth are you trusting to pull that together? There is utterly no leadership in the progressive political wing of the country. None whatsoever.  Why won't it be if the coalition is in power? They can strengthen the electoral commission through legal changes through parliament.  But if you don't trust them to do this, then frankly I'm out anyway.

 

If we lost this referendum, we'd lose the coalition the next time out as it would break down into petty squabbles and infighting - the Tories would win again as they're the only side that can demonstrate consistent unity, largely through their ability to compromise on everything except power. I really don't think it's worth the risk, and I would ask what the downside would be if we just put it into law? Who gets up in arms about it? What serious consequence could it realistically have? Johnson has already pissed all over the concerns we had about the same issues on Brexit and has sailed right through - why are we playing this with one hand tied behind our backs? Referendums are nearly always a shit idea EXCEPT when it comes to areas of major constitutional reform, in which case they are absolutely essential imo, Are you happy for the SNP to declare independence because they are the largest party? I honestly can't believe you're trying to improve democracy by dismantling it. 

 

 

[Rayvin 5349]

Ah, there's the issue I think - I'm not trying to improve democracy in this action. Honestly even before all the recent examples of "democracy in action" I've been lukewarm on it as a system of governance at best. I could get behind it fully if people were forced to learn civics and could be tested for their political competence prior to being allowed to vote but it'll never happen - and yet without it, the whole thing is just a farce IMO.

 

I just want the Tories out of power. They're killing people. They've been killing people for a decade. I couldn't care less about how proper the solution is at this point, if we get that coalition in (which is just so unlikely in the first place that it would almost have to be a perfect storm of calamities for Johnson) we should make it stick so that this country can be forever saved from that fucking party. As I've said before, I'd even be prepared to work with Farage on it on the basis that he'll bring some of the Brexity working class with him and seems sympathetic to the cause.

 

If we get in and have a referendum we're risking the whole thing on a battle that we have at no point proven we are capable of winning. The Tories would fight this with so much ferocity that it would take a fully united and competent progressive alliance to face them down - and we have never, ever, ever proven that we are capable of being that. They'd be claiming socialism, rejoining the EU, more immigrants, threats to freedom of speech, all of it. Plus, their option on the referendum ticket would be "None of the above, Rule Britannia". Ours would be 4 or 5 options that no one fully understands that splits the vote every which way. And frankly, if we're going to be fully above board on this in a democratic sense, we should have to pass a 60% threshold for the change to come in otherwise we're "just as bad as they are".

[Kid Dynamite 7192]

By "We" she means "I" of course 

[Renton 22050]

Wonder what our country would be like now had we had stable competent governance from the likes of Merkel compared with this absolute tit?

 

 

 

[Alex 35664]

imagine if he just took one day or maybe  even an hour off from lying through his fucking teeth about everything. Mind it takes a stupid electorate to let him get away with it 

[Isegrim 9911]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

Wonder what our country would be like now had we had stable competent governance from the likes of Merkel compared with this absolute tit?

 

 

 

Yes, it was terrible in Germany ahead of the customs union in 1833, trade got much easier between states, especially with a common jurisdiction in 1879 as well…

 

[Isegrim 9911]

On 27/06/2021 at 09:16, Gemmill said:

 

 

 

Sarah Vine writing with her trademark subtlety.

 

Rumours in the comments that Gove is about to leave (or has already left) and moved in with a male advisor. Awkward breakfast in the Gove household this morning. 

 

[Gemmill 46195]

There we go. 

[ewerk 31237]

Imagine the relief though of waking up in the morning and not having to look at that face*
 

*Applies to either party 

[Renton 22050]

It's enough to turn me gay, then straight, then gay again, then straight etc. I'm in a logic loop here. Who the fuck would find him attractive him full stop? He's hideous.

 

Probably  ends his chance as PM. Vine has influence so interesting to see how this plays out. 

[Kid Dynamite 7192]

[Gemmill 46195]

 

 

Govey's been getting his D sucked.

 

[Meenzer 15742]

 

[Meenzer 15742]

 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Just realised when Marr is reflected into the glass table in the bbc studio it says Wall

[Gemmill 46195]

9 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Just realised when Marr is reflected into the glass table in the bbc studio it says Wall

 

 

[Dr Gloom 22197]

Zero viewers

 

 

[Monkeys Fist 43229]

I feel a bit bad for all three of Gloria de Piero.