Politics

[Renton 21393]

Just now, Gemmill said:

 

YEAH DOCTOR GLOOM. Fucking explain yourself. 

 

He's a fucking stooge that guy. Ban him imo.

[Gemmill 44498]

He killed Daniel Morgan imo. 

[PaddockLad 17124]

 

[Alex 34913]

10 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I think it's a long shot but the only way out of this now. Despite not being popular with the fringes of their respective parties, I think Starmer and Davies may be pragmatic enough to attempt something like this? I really hope so.

 

This is probably the most shocking by-election swing of all time. I know the England-Scotland match is on later (howay Scotland!), but why the fuck has it been buried by the MSM @Dr Gloom?

It being the only way out of this is what gives me that hope. It’s against Labour’s interests and the Liberals if the former thinks they can win power and the latter think they can form a coalition. Neither seems likely for the foreseeable without a massive degree of cooperation and tactical voting. And the PR ticket is ripe for being sold at present. If you’ve lost faith in democracy then this is a chance for yours and everyone else’s vote to actually count. All the fringe parties benefit too. In England the tories are the only losers. The other nations might be the problem but you could have regional forms of PR that might allay those worries. 

[Meenzer 15432]

24 minutes ago, Alex said:

The other nations might be the problem but you could have regional forms of PR that might allay those worries. 

 

A system of half FPTP, half party lists (i.e. this) would sort that to some extent. The SNP would win almost every FPTP seat and hence end up with about 45% of the MPs for Scotland - neatly corresponding to their vote share in the 2019 general election. (Of course the whole point of PR is that it allows people to vote differently, so you can't extrapolate as neatly as that, but still, it illustrates the point.) The SNP specifically would be against it, I imagine - turkeys and Christmas and that - but Scotland itself shouldn't be.

 

Unfortunately the most notable country to use that system is Germany, so it'll never happen here.  

[Meenzer 15432]

That said, you'd need a different arrangement for NI because the party makeup is so different, and if you're doing that, you'll need to do it for Scotland, Wales and England too. Fun fun fun.

 

Although given that they have no real say in the matter at the minute, letting the people of NI cast a second vote to say which UK-wide party they'd rather have in power does make some sense, particularly in a situation where there are devolved assemblies too. It's just selling the idea that would be the issue...

[Renton 21393]

34 minutes ago, Alex said:

It being the only way out of this is what gives me that hope. It’s against Labour’s interests and the Liberals if the former thinks they can win power and the latter think they can form a coalition. Neither seems likely for the foreseeable without a massive degree of cooperation and tactical voting. And the PR ticket is ripe for being sold at present. If you’ve lost faith in democracy then this is a chance for yours and everyone else’s vote to actually count. All the fringe parties benefit too. In England the tories are the only losers. The other nations might be the problem but you could have regional forms of PR that might allay those worries. 

 As the great Tracy Chapman said, if not now, then when? Really feels like last chance saloon to me before the UK undergoes dissolution. 

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

the great Tracy Chapman

Is that the bloke that sang about Fast Cars? 
 

Also, Sarah Green, who just whipped the Tories…

[Dr Gloom 21847]

4 hours ago, Renton said:

 

I think it's a long shot but the only way out of this now. Despite not being popular with the fringes of their respective parties, I think Starmer and Davies may be pragmatic enough to attempt something like this? I really hope so.

 

This is probably the most shocking by-election swing of all time. I know the England-Scotland match is on later (howay Scotland!), but why the fuck has it been buried by the MSM @Dr Gloom?

it's been reported for a few days now but the press was definitely slower to this story than it was with hartlepool, which was a lot more obvious. this one surprised a lot of people - i don't see how it's been buried though - it is splashed all over the bbc home page and the the rest 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21393]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

it's been reported for a few days now but the press was definitely slower to this story than it was with hartlepool, which was a lot more obvious. this one surprised a lot of people - i don't see how it's been burried though - it is splashed all over the bbc home page and the the rest 

 

Hartlepool was wall to wall coverage, before and after. But Hartlepool was expected, the red wall was already crumbling, it was hardly news. Plus the analysis of it was just wrong, it didn't represent a tory surge, more a transfer of votes from UKiP and labour voters staying at home. Then we have also had wall to wall coverage on Batley and Spen, the next piece in the jigsaw of the MSM's narrative. Here the blue wall has been blown to smithereens in an election which is literally unprecedented. Comparatively, there has been hardly any coverage, although I admit it's increased a bit as the day has gone on. It'll all go quiet now and the MSM will nod their heads and agree with Johnson this is an anomaly.

 

DO YOUR FUCKING JOB GLOOM! 

[Dr Gloom 21847]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Hartlepool was wall to wall coverage, before and after. But Hartlepool was expected, the red wall was already crumbling, it was hardly news. Plus the analysis of it was just wrong, it didn't represent a tory surge, more a transfer of votes from UKiP and labour voters staying at home. Then we have also had wall to wall coverage on Batley and Spen, the next piece in the jigsaw of the MSM's narrative. Here the blue wall has been blown to smithereens in an election which is literally unprecedented. Comparatively, there has been hardly any coverage, although I admit it's increased a bit as the day has gone on. It'll all go quiet now and the MSM will nod their heads and agree with Johnson this is an anomaly.

 

DO YOUR FUCKING JOB GLOOM! 

 

this is the BBC home page right now 

[Dr Gloom 21847]

it is also splashed on the guardian - even the times and torygraph

Edited June 18, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[ewerk 30370]

As someone reasonably aware of what's going on in politics I didn't even know it was happening. There was zero mention of it which I guess is because it was seen as a routine win for the Tories. There has been plenty of coverage now the upset has happened.

[NJS 4375]

An anti-tory alliance sounds good until you remember the lib dems were perfectly willing to enter into a coalition with them and before anyone mentions that was under Clegg, they've only been too happy to do the same in councils all across the country. 

[Renton 21393]

7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

this is the BBC home page right now 

 

What do you want?

 

THANKS FOR DOING YOUR JOB!?

 

[Dr Gloom 21847]

14 minutes ago, ewerk said:

As someone reasonably aware of what's going on in politics I didn't even know it was happening. There was zero mention of it which I guess is because it was seen as a routine win for the Tories. There has been plenty of coverage now the upset has happened.

that is true. it took most political reporters by surprise, though some where reporting it at the start of this week - but it certainly didn't have the build up the hartlepool by-election had, because that one was predictable. few people saw it coming. saying it's been buried since it became a story is just nonsense. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[ewerk 30370]

1 minute ago, NJS said:

An anti-tory alliance sounds good until you remember the lib dems were perfectly willing to enter into a coalition with them and before anyone mentions that was under Clegg, they've only been too happy to do the same in councils all across the country. 

You know that's also likely to happen under PR. It isn't just all the nice/inoffensive parties who club together?

[Renton 21393]

1 minute ago, NJS said:

An anti-tory alliance sounds good until you remember the lib dems were perfectly willing to enter into a coalition with them and before anyone mentions that was under Clegg, they've only been too happy to do the same in councils all across the country. 

 

Well aye, let's just not bother fundamentally changing the country through electoral reform then.

 

[ewerk 30370]

Maybe it's time for Renton to switch over from GB News.

[Gemmill 44498]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

As someone reasonably aware of what's going on in politics I didn't even know it was happening. There was zero mention of it which I guess is because it was seen as a routine win for the Tories. There has been plenty of coverage now the upset has happened.

 

First I heard of it was yesterday when the Lib Dems started making noises about how they were confident of a big upset. There'd been nothing, or very little coverage, prior to that. 

[Alex 34913]

6 minutes ago, NJS said:

An anti-tory alliance sounds good until you remember the lib dems were perfectly willing to enter into a coalition with them and before anyone mentions that was under Clegg, they've only been too happy to do the same in councils all across the country. 

I think it’s a bit different at local level anyway. Also I think that while it's not exactly my dream scenario a Con-Lib coalition under pr would see the latter with considerable clout and more able to temper the right wing of the Tory party. Given the current makeup of the electorate though, in England at least, a Lab/Lib/Green alliance would seem most likely 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Alex

[Meenzer 15432]

In part it doesn't help that the Lib Dems always do their "it's a two-horse race" spiel complete with number-mangling leaflets and dodgy graphs, so when they released internal polling a few days ago saying they were 45-41 behind and closing the gap in what was ostensibly a rock-solid Tory seat, it was understandable that many commentators saw it as a "boy who cried wolf" scenario and didn't bother giving it much credence.

[Dr Gloom 21847]

the lib dems are always giving it the bigun - the political equivalent of quiff and his 400kg deadlifts. swinson was on about winning the last election ffs - should we be surprised that the media doesn't take them seriously?

[NJS 4375]

44 minutes ago, ewerk said:

You know that's also likely to happen under PR. It isn't just all the nice/inoffensive parties who club together?

I'm generally in favour of PR - I'm just saying that an assumption that there's naturally an anti-tory alliance is a bit presumptive. 

 

I get that in principle a power broking party have to negotiate in good faith - I just don't think on the last few occasions the lib dems have shown good faith - their insistence on replacing Brown and stating they wouldn't work with Mliband or Corbyn being particularly offensive to me in the absence of any similar conditions on the other side. 

 

Perhaps if we did find a route to PR then more parties would emerge - a tories with a conscience type lib dem, a left-ish lib dem,  a new Labour and a mainstream socialist party might satisfy most people from a voting pov but I'm not sure any major changes could occur once all the deals are done 

[Isegrim 9737]

A lot down there might be in connection with HS2. Even the tory die hards there are mostly deadly against it. The last one had the bonus of being against it, but with building really having started they probably don’t trust another tory. They are absolutely livid about the project ruining their countryside (just don’t call them a nimby).