ChezGiven 0 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Even Tony told you last week his government didnt have a scooby doo about finances. And neither do the current lot, thats clear. Edited July 26, 2012 by ChezGiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21620 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Again you are merging to viewpoints. One is relating to the decline of UK manufacturing and how this decline was papered over by various boom and busts and an ever increasing over reliance on credit. No ammount of R&D or internet frontiers are going to employ the masses in Burnley or Bognor. The second viewpoint is about the Conservatives being better suited to deal with this situation than the rabble who joked about "no money left". I stick by that viewpoint. The fact that our biggest market, Europe is on its arse, is of course going to effect anything we do to try and increase growth. As I keep saying, and it keeps getting ignored, the cuts have hardly even kicked in yet so trying to use them as an excuse for lack of growth is quite stupid. We are a fat bloated society that has suckled at the tits of handouts and debt to kid ourselves that everything would be fine. Jesus wept, did you bother reading the post? Edited July 26, 2012 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 By developing tech/products which "the masses" will be employed to make ? Unfortunately it will be the Chinese, African, Brazillian masses not me and thee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 It would only be window dressing for the masses (and pocket lining for rich friends), and would make no difference to the underlying problems well documented over the last two days. Its time to take sides. It's basically what Germany does and continues to do...State funded projects are at an all time high here...It creates jobs it creates new companies who pay tax and it gives stimulus to the core economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt 0 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Another thing CT, when the problems of the post-banking crisis ... You know what, I think we're finally making the move from banking crisis to what it really was/is- a monetary crisis with governments spending less time worrying about banks and more worrying about growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So when the cuts kick in, how do you reckon things will go? Can you see the real cuts helping to stimulate economic growth? The cuts have kicked in, its just that other forms of government expenditure have risen in response to the continued recession. Overall expenditure is not falling because unemployment keeps rising. The tories tore up contracts for construction on day 3 of their coalition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Unfortunately it will be the Chinese, African, Brazillian masses not me and thee. Partly true. There needs to be a new contract between the state and business...Partly what the EU was trying to do...We know what happened there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 The cuts have kicked in, its just that other forms of government expenditure have risen in response to the continued recession. Overall expenditure is not falling because unemployment keeps rising. The tories tore up contracts for construction on day 3 of their coalition. I know, I'm trying to humour him for a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21620 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 So when the cuts kick in, how do you reckon things will go? Can you see the real cuts helping to stimulate economic growth? If you read back on this thread, CT is on record as saying he doesn't think growth is particularly important to the economy, and that a double dip recession is neither here nor there. I'm paraphrasing but that's the general gist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 So when the cuts kick in, how do you reckon things will go? Can you see the real cuts helping to stimulate economic growth? I dont think it will happen tbh. Simply reading some of the views in this threads tells me how many well educated people seem to be in denial about the shit we (and the majority of the West) are in. I think the coalition will probably buckle, we may even swing back to Labour and nothing will change. Unfortunately we are in very unchartered water and the whole global economy is now so reliant on each other I am not quite sure where it will all end up. My best guess is that this right wing / hard stance that seems to be spreading will continue and that while now we are demonising bankers, people on benefits and tradesmen who are paid in cash, it will soon turn to foreign counties and protectionism will kick in. After three days of political discussion, depressingly I am still yet to see any resemblance of a plan B, apart from Rentons Tech approach, which doesnt add up imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 And neither do the current lot, thats clear. Nobody does Chez, thats my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42427 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Unfortunately it will be the Chinese, African, Brazillian masses not me and thee. Ah well, best not bother trying then , eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 It's basically what Germany does and continues to do...State funded projects are at an all time high here...It creates jobs it creates new companies who pay tax and it gives stimulus to the core economy. We are nothing like Germany though Parky either in method or position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 If you read back on this thread, CT is on record as saying he doesn't think growth is particularly important to the economy, and that a double dip recession is neither here nor there. I'm paraphrasing but that's the general gist. The first part of your sentence is either bollocks or totally taken out of context. The second bit about double dip IS neither here or there in the grand scheme of shit we are in. a few points one way of the other over a few months is immaterial, almost, as has no bearing on the bigger picture facing the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Come on NJS, get stuck in. You usually talk sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 The first part of your sentence is either bollocks or totally taken out of context. The second bit about double dip IS neither here or there in the grand scheme of shit we are in. a few points one way of the other over a few months is immaterial, almost, as has no bearing on the bigger picture facing the west. Didn't you previously claim that all we can do is manage the decline of the British economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Didn't you previously claim that all we can do is manage the decline of the British economy? Until a plan B is found that is all that is currently happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Maybe they should be looking a bit harder then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21620 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) The first part of your sentence is either bollocks or totally taken out of context. The second bit about double dip IS neither here or there in the grand scheme of shit we are in. a few points one way of the other over a few months is immaterial, almost, as has no bearing on the bigger picture facing the west. It does matter though, hugely. If Dave and Gideon's forecast of 5% growth had come true, instead of contraction, we would be well on the way to recovery now and you would, with some justification, be gloating. However the austerity drive choked confidence from day one and stopped the early recovery in its tracks. The private sector didn't kick in as had been predicted by the right. It's not working and we need to change track NOW before your new prediction becomes self-fulfilling. Edited July 26, 2012 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) It does matter though, hugely. If Dave and Gideon's forecast of 5% growth had come true, instead of contraction, we would be well on the way to recovery now and you would, with some justification, be gloating. However the austerity drive choked confidence from day one and stopped the early recovery in its tracks. The private sector didn't kick in as had been predicted by the right. It's not working and we need to change track NOW before your new prediction becomes self-fulfilling. Honestly, you are really missing the wood for the trees. Putting that to one side, what is this "change of track" that you believe is going to put things right? Edited July 26, 2012 by Christmas Tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21620 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Stop or slow the austerity measures until we are back on growth is an obvious starter. Massive public investment in R&D and infrastructure is another. You say we can't be like the Germans. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Stop or slow the austerity measures until we are back on growth is an obvious starter. Massive public investment in R&D and infrastructure is another. You say we can't be like the Germans. Why not? But no party currently thinks that stopping the austerity measures is viable. And as I have said, the biggest cuts were back loaded towards the end of the parliament so havent even kicked in yet. A lot of R and D is going on (like the new material they have invented in Manchester) and while this is good for British business and will employ some scientists etc, it wont create British Manufacturing jobs. Big infrastructure projects are in the pipeline as I am sure you know such as the electrified rail etc. However the money still has to come from somewhere??? The comparisons with Germany are ridiculous for many reasons. Even if we did stop the cuts, borrow more money to build more stuff, it would still make very little difference to the underlying problems of a fucked Europe, no more debt bubbles and cheap labour abroad. All parties realise this which is why no one anywhere has the plan B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21620 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Well you were wrong in your predictions 2 years ago and I'm confident you're wrong now. Read Chez's post again re: origin of present problems. There was a series on BBC 2 last year with Evan Davies you might have benefitted from as well about our post-industrial future. Can't remember the title of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44864 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Tapatalk auto correct actually moleman. Righto pigman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Well you were wrong in your predictions 2 years ago and I'm confident you're wrong now. Read Chez's post again re: origin of present problems. There was a series on BBC 2 last year with Evan Davies you might have benefitted from as well about our post-industrial future. Can't remember the title of it. Chez is talking about the specifics of the actual crash in detail which is fine. I was talking at the overall decline since the end of mass manufacturing and how imo the inevitable outcome of it was only ever delayed. I would be quite interested to watch the Evan Davies thing if you remember it. (Not sure if it would be available anywhere). (btw, be interested to see any particular political "prediction" you claim I made that was incorrect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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