Politics

[Christmas Tree 4679]

are you genuinely that dense?

 

You're blind to the huge, massive, vast difference between having political beliefs and rubbing them in the face of those suffering because of them?

 

I'd have exactly the same issue if the roles were reversed and in a thread where people were worried that Labour's return to power was going to cost their small business to the point they lost it to creditors, someone was celebrating their return I'd call them on it too.

 

The reason I'm being personal is because you acted like a cock to people who were worried about real life problems and you blindly support your man "Dave" regardless of dissenting expert opinion. Again, you're the Liverpool fan of party politics. offended by everything, ashamed of nothing.

 

Its always the "Im a left winger and care about my fellow man bla bla bla type".... who are the ones freely chucking the poisonous comments about.

 

It is because you are simply unable to debate the real issues. No need to be ashamed by the way. But what started out as a discussion about global economics has been continually dragged back to poisonous mud slinging by yourself even though nothing I have posted tonight warrants it.

 

Goodnight Brave Dave.

[The Fish 10684]

Its always the "Im a left winger and care about my fellow man bla bla bla type".... who are the ones freely chucking the poisonous comments about.

 

It is because you are simply unable to debate the real issues. No need to be ashamed by the way. But what started out as a discussion about global economics has been continually dragged back to poisonous mud slinging by yourself even though nothing I have posted tonight warrants it.

 

Goodnight Brave Dave.

I'm sure that you're entirely capable of throwing down with Chez, Matt et al when it comes to the complexities of finance you seem a real whiz. If HF, Chez and Matt all say X then back up their arguments I'll listen to it. When you flip flop like a saloon door, of course I'm going to take the piss. Within the past two days you've stated that no party can resolve the banking crisis, then you post an article from the Express stating that the austerity measures aren't going far enough and further measures would speed recovery. This is what bothers me, you're the anti-wolfy. He doesn't believe anything the government says, you believe everything they say.

 

You know as much(as little) about this stuff as I do, but make out like you're well versed.

[Gemmill 44261]

It is inevitable that the eurozone will collapse under the pressure of neoliberal economic policies being imposed upon it to attempt to replicate the export-led mercantilism of East Asia, which will drag the Third World, dependant upon remittances sent home from cheap immigrant labour, and the heavily export-dependant East Asia, and its trading partners, into a global recession, thereby straining their abilities to finance U.S. foreign debts and deficits, leading to a sharp weakening of the dollar and rising import prices, with a corresponding collapse in general demand. Considering the U.S. is deindustrialized, the production capacity is minimal.

 

That is when the American populace will be driven into extreme, neo-poverty, as a relatively high standard of living has been maintained over these past decades, despite stagnant real wages as a result of the destructive competition brought about with neoliberal globalization, through working harder and longer hours, both partners working, a reliance on cheap imports and the creation of debt-based economies with a dependance upon credit and property-based consumption in order to maintain stagnant general demand. The only solution the desperate States will see at that point in order to maintain their authority and control over society will be protectionism, where each nation strives to rebuild and shield its domestic industrial base, resulting in trade wars, with devaluations and a surge in Beggar thy neighbor-policies, similar to those applied by Germany in the eurozone, whereby real wages have been suppressed and exports subsidized so as to attract capital flows and be able to flood Southern markets with cheap, massproduced goods which have ruined local competition, with widespread misery in its wake, and that is when the current, loosely organized expressions of discontent in the shape of protests, riots and demonstrations will mushroom into greater activities under the sway of demagogues, as social unrest, political instability, economic turmoil, ethnic conflicts and class struggle continue to spread.

 

What is needed in order to prevent the above scenario and put an end to the current economic crisis and the equilibrium of stagnation of the past decades is a controlled dismantling of the eurozone, built upon mercantilism, and a replacement of it with an international system similar to Bretton Woods of the Postwar-era, which aims to make possible and incentivize domestic demand-led socioeconomic development and fair international trade, through regulation of currencies, exchange rates and capital flows, implementation of economic regulations and taxes on a global basis and the creation of an international minimum level with regards to wages, conditions, compensation, safety and influence, so as to move power over policymaking back into the hands of national governments and ensure progressive global competition based upon knowledge, competence, skill and innovation, rather than lower wages, lower taxes, worse conditions and insecurity.

 

This needs to be combined on a national level across the world, in particular in export-dependant nations such as Germany, Brazil, Russia and China, with a Green New Deal, of massive jobs programs, public investment and societal initiaitves in all economic areas, ranging from construction of infrastructure and affordable housing, generous, robust social insurance aswell as strong labour rights and trade unions to research and development, strict regulation of natural monopolies and public services and rising real wages in line with productivity growth, financed through progressive taxation, which is made possible through the aforementioned international system which prevents nations who attempt to pursue long-term policies such as these from being punished through capital flight, offshoring of production, tax evasion and speculative attacks, and all of this combined, both directly, through employment of construction workers, industrial workers, architects, engineers etc. for infrastructural projects, and indirectly, through higher disposable incomes as expenses decline when profit-motives are removed from e.g. electricity, railroads and mass transportation, leads to increased purchasing power and consumer confidence, leading to rising general demand and thereby increased profits and income to private and public sectors, resulting in investments in hiring and expanding production, which in turn leads to rising economic activity and falling unemployment, with increased revenue from taxation and trade which can be utilized to promote further socioeconomic development and pay down on debts and deficits.

 

The outlook is grim, I only hope that mass movements of the people, such as Occupy in the U.S and Indignados in Spain, will be able to force through change from below, as happened in the 1930s, which culminated in the New Deal and the Postwar-Golden Age, before we descend into a Great Depression.

 

Are you the bloke on the Guardian comments section who originally posted this, or have you just copy and pasted and tried to pass it off as your own?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/17334348

[Happy Face 29]

I would read your post again. It was clearly directed at the Tory party and their backers.

 

You, a bit like Fish, seem confused by two points that you seem to be merging.

 

One point is about the decline of the Western economies.

 

The other is about how the government of the day manages within that framework.

 

It's quite reasonable for me to consider our overall decline while still preferring a particular party to deal with that situation better than another.

 

It wasn't directed at the tories at all. As I (and you) inferred, New Labour are also steeped in corporate cronyism, and their fiscal policy at the last election was broadly identical.

 

This is why your faith in Saint Dave and your bile towards Labour has been so confusing....unless it's other policies of the Tories that garner such keen support from you?

 

The Western economies aren't necessarily declining any more. They're still not great but the US has been slowly, steadily improving. Someone might correct me, but I think the UK are performing worse than any other country with their own currency and centralised bank. 2 benefits which should have seen us much better able to manage the fallout of 2007 than the rest of Europe.

[Park Life 71]

Are you the bloke on the Guardian comments section who originally posted this, or have you just copy and pasted and tried to pass it off as your own?

 

http://www.guardian....malink/17334348

 

Bang to rights.

 

Forgot the quotation marks.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Park Life

[Park Life 71]

It wasn't directed at the tories at all. As I (and you) inferred, New Labour are also steeped in corporate cronyism, and their fiscal policy at the last election was broadly identical.

 

This is why your faith in Saint Dave and your bile towards Labour has been so confusing....unless it's other policies of the Tories that garner such keen support from you?

 

The Western economies aren't necessarily declining any more. They're still not great but the US has been slowly, steadily improving. Someone might correct me, but I think the UK are performing worse than any other country with their own currency and centralised bank. 2 benefits which should have seen us much better able to manage the fallout of 2007 than the rest of Europe.

 

They're shit scared of spooking the bond yields and the banks.

[Dr Gloom 21800]

It is inevitable that the eurozone will collapse under the pressure of neoliberal economic policies being imposed upon it to attempt to replicate the export-led mercantilism of East Asia, which will drag the Third World, dependant upon remittances sent home from cheap immigrant labour, and the heavily export-dependant East Asia, and its trading partners, into a global recession, thereby straining their abilities to finance U.S. foreign debts and deficits, leading to a sharp weakening of the dollar and rising import prices, with a corresponding collapse in general demand. Considering the U.S. is deindustrialized, the production capacity is minimal.

 

That is when the American populace will be driven into extreme, neo-poverty, as a relatively high standard of living has been maintained over these past decades, despite stagnant real wages as a result of the destructive competition brought about with neoliberal globalization, through working harder and longer hours, both partners working, a reliance on cheap imports and the creation of debt-based economies with a dependance upon credit and property-based consumption in order to maintain stagnant general demand. The only solution the desperate States will see at that point in order to maintain their authority and control over society will be protectionism, where each nation strives to rebuild and shield its domestic industrial base, resulting in trade wars, with devaluations and a surge in Beggar thy neighbor-policies, similar to those applied by Germany in the eurozone, whereby real wages have been suppressed and exports subsidized so as to attract capital flows and be able to flood Southern markets with cheap, massproduced goods which have ruined local competition, with widespread misery in its wake, and that is when the current, loosely organized expressions of discontent in the shape of protests, riots and demonstrations will mushroom into greater activities under the sway of demagogues, as social unrest, political instability, economic turmoil, ethnic conflicts and class struggle continue to spread.

 

What is needed in order to prevent the above scenario and put an end to the current economic crisis and the equilibrium of stagnation of the past decades is a controlled dismantling of the eurozone, built upon mercantilism, and a replacement of it with an international system similar to Bretton Woods of the Postwar-era, which aims to make possible and incentivize domestic demand-led socioeconomic development and fair international trade, through regulation of currencies, exchange rates and capital flows, implementation of economic regulations and taxes on a global basis and the creation of an international minimum level with regards to wages, conditions, compensation, safety and influence, so as to move power over policymaking back into the hands of national governments and ensure progressive global competition based upon knowledge, competence, skill and innovation, rather than lower wages, lower taxes, worse conditions and insecurity.

 

This needs to be combined on a national level across the world, in particular in export-dependant nations such as Germany, Brazil, Russia and China, with a Green New Deal, of massive jobs programs, public investment and societal initiaitves in all economic areas, ranging from construction of infrastructure and affordable housing, generous, robust social insurance aswell as strong labour rights and trade unions to research and development, strict regulation of natural monopolies and public services and rising real wages in line with productivity growth, financed through progressive taxation, which is made possible through the aforementioned international system which prevents nations who attempt to pursue long-term policies such as these from being punished through capital flight, offshoring of production, tax evasion and speculative attacks, and all of this combined, both directly, through employment of construction workers, industrial workers, architects, engineers etc. for infrastructural projects, and indirectly, through higher disposable incomes as expenses decline when profit-motives are removed from e.g. electricity, railroads and mass transportation, leads to increased purchasing power and consumer confidence, leading to rising general demand and thereby increased profits and income to private and public sectors, resulting in investments in hiring and expanding production, which in turn leads to rising economic activity and falling unemployment, with increased revenue from taxation and trade which can be utilized to promote further socioeconomic development and pay down on debts and deficits.

 

The outlook is grim, I only hope that mass movements of the people, such as Occupy in the U.S and Indignados in Spain, will be able to force through change from below, as happened in the 1930s, which culminated in the New Deal and the Postwar-Golden Age, before we descend into a Great Depression.

 

Too late. We have already started the descent into a second great depression

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

It wasn't directed at the tories at all. As I (and you) inferred, New Labour are also steeped in corporate cronyism, and their fiscal policy at the last election was broadly identical.

 

This is why your faith in Saint Dave and your bile towards Labour has been so confusing....unless it's other policies of the Tories that garner such keen support from you?

 

The Western economies aren't necessarily declining any more. They're still not great but the US has been slowly, steadily improving. Someone might correct me, but I think the UK are performing worse than any other country with their own currency and centralised bank. 2 benefits which should have seen us much better able to manage the fallout of 2007 than the rest of Europe.

 

Of course we are doing better than a lot of countries which is why so far our credit rating, cost of borrowing has remained so much better than the majority of the "rest of Europe".

 

However when our main export Market is in sheer turmoil due to the Euro Zone crisis, times ain't going to be good.

 

You rightly point out that both parties fiscal policies are virtually the same. And even today there is no plan B from Labour either.

 

Sometimes life is just a shit sandwich and you have to eat your share.

 

I am also unclear how you think we can return to the good times. What is going to replace the debt bubble that has kept u's going for the last 20 years?

Edited July 26, 2012 by Christmas Tree

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Tbf Parky that piece you posted pretty much is exactly what I've been saying without the big words.

 

 

[Happy Face 29]

Of course we are doing better than a lot of countries which is why so far our credit rating, cost of borrowing has remained so much better than the majority of the "rest of Europe".

 

However when our main export Market is in sheer turmoil due to the Euro Zone crisis, times ain't going to be good.

 

You rightly point out that both parties fiscal policies are virtually the same. And even today there is no plan B from Labour either.

 

Sometimes life is just a shot sandwich and you have to eat your share.

 

I am also unclear how you think we can return to the good times. What is going to replace the debt bubble that has kept u's going for the last 20 years?

 

Which countries with their own currency/bank are recovering more slowly than the UK?

 

Labour and the tories have no plan B because they're getting along just fine, they're beholden to their paymasters (and I don't mean the public) but they do very well out of that, irrespective of how the rest of us do. They share power between them for a bit then join the boards of the companies they did favours for.

 

It's you as a voter that needs a plan B, not those in power whose careers are going swimmingly. Rather than continuing to blindly shill for either of the major parties, you could support the occupy movement...who's number one priority is to remove the corporate influence from government, the more people that back them the more legitimacy they gain. Or you could not vote at all, don't validate a corrupt system.

[Gemmill 44261]

Tbf Parky that piece you posted pretty much is exactly what I've been saying without the big words.

 

[ChezGiven 0]

Tbf Parky that piece you posted pretty much is exactly what I've been saying without the big words.

It really isnt what you've been saying at all.

[Dr Gloom 21800]

Tbf Parky that piece you posted pretty much is exactly what I've been saying without the big words.

 

since when were "the" and "a" big words?

[Renton 21231]

Simple fact is we were recovering under labour, but since the coalition got in we have actually contracted. This is an unarguable fact which was predicted by several people on this very thread (although the extent of our future economic problems was probably underestimated). All that's left for Osbourne now is to compare us to one of the PIIGS, despite us not even being in the Eurozone. His management has been nothing short of catastrophic. It's not the Western world going down the swanny CT, it's specifically us.

[ChezGiven 0]

Osborne: Even The Mail would call for him to go if they could find a picture of him in a bikini for their website.

[Gemmill 44261]

It would be beautiful if he ends up getting the boot. I don't see Dave sacking his mate though and that slug hasn't got the humility to admit he's out of his depth and resign.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

It really isnt what you've been saying at all.

 

It really is though. Dress it up any way you like but the debt bubble economy replaced mass manufacturing and kept u's ticking along during the last 30 odd years.

 

Now the bubbles burst we are screwed.

 

No debt bubble to bolster the economy, no mass manufacturing and no big public expenditure.

 

The fact that today people like Renton etc can't get their head around this amazes me.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Christmas Tree

[Gemmill 44261]

He spells us u apostrophe s ffs.

[Renton 21231]

I can't get my head round that? Do you think that's a mainstream view or something? There's more to wealth creation than making nuts and bolts you know. The UK has and has to leave this type of manufacturing output behind and concentrate on the high end of things, such as R&D and service provision China et al can't provide. There's more money to be made in coding software than there is in manufacturing hardware for instance.

 

You claimed Dave would fix it, and now he hasn't, you claim the whole of western society is doomed and no-one could fix it. Despite him being the best PM of our lifetimes. Yet outside the obvious failing Eurozone countries it is the UK alone that is contracting. Your pessimistic views are simply preposterous and defeatist. It amazes me you can't see this. Actually, no, it doesn't.

[Park Life 71]

The bloke running the economy has a 3rd class degree in history.

[ewerk 30221]

The bloke running the economy has a 3rd class degree in history.

 

Source?

[Gemmill 44261]

Definitely a history degree. Not sure on grade.

[ewerk 30221]

I think Parky has been mistaking the Guardian website user comments as facts.

 

Edit: Not that a 2:1 means that he's in any way qualified to run the economy.

Edited July 26, 2012 by ewerk

[Park Life 71]

I think Parky has been mistaking the Guardian website user comments as facts.

 

I only read the comments.

[Matt 0]

From the FT:

 

"The data are shocking and no amount of excuses about rainfall or the Queen’s Jubilee can explain away such weak growth,” said Alan Wilde of Baring Asset Management.

“Osborne’s personal ratings for economic competency are plummeting and the credit rating agencies will be deeply concerned by today’s report . . . this may well hasten a downgrade.”

 

Sounds like Gideon has lost the confidence of the very people his austerity measures were supposed to reassure.