Politics

[Happy Face 29]

You seem to be aiming that misguided remark at the Tory party when it's public knowledge there was virtually nothing between labour and Tory plans in 2010.

 

It amazes me that so many are obsessed with the little picture and not the big one.

 

Nothing a UK government of any colour does, will have any difference on growth.

 

The party was over long ago and only debt has kept it ticking along til 2008.

 

Time to pay the bill for generations to come.

 

Chinas turn now to party, then Brazil, then Africa etc etc.

 

Without a debt bubble you need big industry employing the masses to create meaningful growth.

 

Do you really think you are going to see that happen here in your lifetime.

 

Each day we are creating new ways to put people out of jobs via technology.

 

I made no reference whatsoever to either party. I think you're projecting your blatant party prejudice onto the argument. Your fervent Tory support of the last few years has been replaced by a willful ignorance of everything they've done wrong and a renewed enthusiasm for defeatism, because your faith has been so rudely blighted.

 

Labour are just as guilty of doing favours to elites, of towing the line with market demands, the only difference is they did it during boom time, they kept spending when Keynes says the government SHOULD drop spending.

 

Labours plans were very similar to the Tories....that being the case, what made you so vocal on insisting that the Tories should get in?

[Renton 21229]

The deficit is lowered, debt will soon be lowered, labour aren't in government, until next year when we finally start to regain growth I'll sit here quietly smug and happy. Improvements are slow but at least they're sticking to their guns, I'm no Tory but I think they're doing a wise job

 

What do you do for a living out of interest? Or if a student, what do you intend to do? I think it obvious you're a Tory anyway. That'll explain your smugness.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Renton

[CleeToonFan 1]

Student and not even sure. I'm not a Tory I just hate Labour (yes I am working class, not that that ever should be relevant.) I'm probably more Lib Dem than anything. Put of interest why should profession matter?

[Renton 21229]

It'll matter loads if when you graduate you can't find a job because we have had zero growth for 5 years. What's your beef with labour?

[CleeToonFan 1]

I come from a fishing town and labour not only screwed up the local economy but refused compensation for years. Recently the local economy has been helped by conservatives grants for sustainable energy etc, so from a local view the conservatives have helped more. Plus they drive up deficits, created a god awful education system for when I was growing up and have 'supporters' who support them like we support Newcastle, biased and hate anything the conservatives do. If labour came in again and I believed in what they were doing I'd think fair enough but these cunts wouldnt give the Tories credit if our growth was 50%.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

I made no reference whatsoever to either party. I think you're projecting your blatant party prejudice onto the argument. Your fervent Tory support of the last few years has been replaced by a willful ignorance of everything they've done wrong and a renewed enthusiasm for defeatism, because your faith has been so rudely blighted.

 

Labour are just as guilty of doing favours to elites, of towing the line with market demands, the only difference is they did it during boom time, they kept spending when Keynes says the government SHOULD drop spending.

 

Labours plans were very similar to the Tories....that being the case, what made you so vocal on insisting that the Tories should get in?

 

I would read your post again. It was clearly directed at the Tory party and their backers.

 

You, a bit like Fish, seem confused by two points that you seem to be merging.

 

One point is about the decline of the Western economies.

 

The other is about how the government of the day manages within that framework.

 

It's quite reasonable for me to consider our overall decline while still preferring a particular party to deal with that situation better than another.

 

 

[Christmas Tree 4679]

I come from a fishing town and labour not only screwed up the local economy but refused compensation for years. Recently the local economy has been helped by conservatives grants for sustainable energy etc, so from a local view the conservatives have helped more. Plus they drive up deficits, created a god awful education system for when I was growing up and have 'supporters' who support them like we support Newcastle, biased and hate anything the conservatives do. If labour came in again and I believed in what they were doing I'd think fair enough but these cunts wouldnt give the Tories credit if our growth was 50%.

 

Spot on summary of your average Labour supporter.

[Renton 21229]

I come from a fishing town and labour not only screwed up the local economy but refused compensation for years. Recently the local economy has been helped by conservatives grants for sustainable energy etc, so from a local view the conservatives have helped more. Plus they drive up deficits, created a god awful education system for when I was growing up and have 'supporters' who support them like we support Newcastle, biased and hate anything the conservatives do. If labour came in again and I believed in what they were doing I'd think fair enough but these cunts wouldnt give the Tories credit if our growth was 50%.

 

So politics is partisan, so what? What credit have the tories and their supporters ever given Labour?

 

You describe yourself as working class and a student. What do you think of this government saddling graduates like yourelf with 30k debt and no job prospects? I can understand older people who have prospered through the property boom being less bothered by this government (i.e. landlords), but for the life of me I just cannot understand why any young person would support the current lot. Each to their own, but if you really are working class I wish you luck cos you're going to need it.

 

Edit: Oh btw, many of the posters on here are products of the 80s education system. You have NO idea how bad that was for the majority.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Renton

[The Fish 10682]

I would read your post again. It was clearly directed at the Tory party and their backers.

 

You, a bit like Fish, seem confused by two points that you seem to be merging.

 

One point is about the decline of the Western economies.

 

The other is about how the government of the day manages within that framework.

 

It's quite reasonable for me to consider our overall decline while still preferring a particular party to deal with that situation better than another.

You know damned well that you're so died in the wool Tory, if Dave shat out a demon that devoured children you'd try and say it's a necessary answer to the over-population.

[Renton 21229]

You know damned well that you're so died in the wool Tory, if Dave shat out a demon that devoured children you'd try and say it's a necessary answer to the over-population.

 

Somewhere in this thread he admits that, and do you remember 'the boys are back in town' squeals of delight eminating from him on election night? Previous to that he claimed he was the only unbiased poster on the thread.

[Monkeys Fist 42003]

* dyed in the wool.

 

 

 

80's education.

 

[Christmas Tree 4679]

You know damned well that you're so died in the wool Tory, if Dave shat out a demon that devoured children you'd try and say it's a necessary answer to the over-population.

 

 

I'm not sure what your point has to do with anything?

 

Are you trying to say I've said I didnt support the Tory party somewhere???

 

 

[The Fish 10682]

 

I'm not sure what your point has to do with anything?

 

Are you trying to say I've said I didnt support the Tory party somewhere???

No I'm saying that you support the Tories blindly.

 

I'm saying that regardless of the bad they do, or the good the opposition do, or the testimony of experts, you won't say a bad word against them. Nor will you give credit to their dissenters.

 

I'm quite comfortable condemning the faults of Labour, as I am the good of the Tories.

 

My point is if politics were football; you're a Liverpool supporter.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

No I'm saying that you support the Tories blindly.

 

I'm saying that regardless of the bad they do, or the good the opposition do, or the testimony of experts, you won't say a bad word against them. Nor will you give credit to their dissenters.

 

I'm quite comfortable condemning the faults of Labour, as I am the good of the Tories.

 

My point is if politics were football; you're a Liverpool supporter.

 

Of course all wrong as countless posts in this thread verify, however a more worthwhile point is this IMO.

 

Politics is interesting and can lead to good debates on here. It would be much better if things could be debated without the need to personalise the argument.

 

Of course I'm pretty thick skinned and can give as good as I get, but want tends to happen is the discussion turns nasty very quickly and we end up not discussing stuff for months at a time.

 

I appreciate some just arnt interested full stop, but it would be nice to have more discussions IMO.

 

Just saying

[The Fish 10682]

Of course all wrong as countless posts in this thread verify, however a more worthwhile point is this IMO.

 

Politics is interesting and can lead to good debates on here. It would be much better if things could be debated without the need to personalise the argument.

 

Of course I'm pretty thick skinned and can give as good as I get, but want tends to happen is the discussion turns nasty very quickly and we end up not discussing stuff for months at a time.

 

I appreciate some just arnt interested full stop, but it would be nice to have more discussions IMO.

 

Just saying

Howay then, have a go at the Tories.

 

just for me

[CleeToonFan 1]

 

No I'm saying that you support the Tories blindly.

 

I'm saying that regardless of the bad they do, or the good the opposition do, or the testimony of experts, you won't say a bad word against them. Nor will you give credit to their dissenters.

 

I'm quite comfortable condemning the faults of Labour, as I am the good of the Tories.

 

My point is if politics were football; you're a Liverpool supporter.

Aye it's true that there's some like that on both sides, but that's worse with labour. The types you get at Uni who moan everything the Tories do regardless of how small it is just bores me. As someone who believes in tuition fee increases they've not done anything that directly annoys me (in alright jack ) but if they did I'd slag em off. It's not that I'd never vote labour (or conservatives for that matter) its just that as it stands I believe we have the right men in. The absolute worst thing about labour however is how they claim to be 'the good guys', they spend years portraying the Tories as horrible bastards, and they do little to differentiate themselves when it comes down to it. When it comes to personalities there is very little between them, when it comes to policies it's opinion, I respect someone for voting labour as long as its not a case of 'labour/conservatives say this so it must be right.'

 

Paragraphs are shit

[The Fish 10682]

Aye it's true that there's some like that on both sides, but that's worse with labour. The types you get at Uni who moan everything the Tories do regardless of how small it is just bores me. As someone who believes in tuition fee increases they've not done anything that directly annoys me (in alright jack ) but if they did I'd slag em off. It's not that I'd never vote labour (or conservatives for that matter) its just that as it stands I believe we have the right men in. The absolute worst thing about labour however is how they claim to be 'the good guys', they spend years portraying the Tories as horrible bastards, and they do little to differentiate themselves when it comes down to it. When it comes to personalities there is very little between them, when it comes to policies it's opinion, I respect someone for voting labour as long as its not a case of 'labour/conservatives say this so it must be right.'

 

Paragraphs are shit

The reason there are so many left-wing folk at Uni is because that is where the mind is broadened

 

In all seriousness the reason the tories are painted as the bad-guys is because Right Wing politics appear to many to be "I'm all right jack."-ists. Right Wing policies are all about do it yourself and fuck the guy beside you if he's not doing the same. Left wing is all help eachother, one society, pull together. Of course they claim they're the "good guys"

 

Out of interest, why do you agree with tuition fees?

[ChezGiven 0]

We all drift to the right as we get older, so Clee is going to be sporting Jackboots and kicking the fuck out of the blacks when he is my age.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Fish, there is no right wing or left wing anymore and trying to paint the parties in that way is pointless.

 

Labour abandoned a lot of principles to gain power under Tony. I remember so many hard core traditional union men couldn't believe what happened simply to gain power.

 

A lot of them seemed under the impression that Tony would revert to the left once in power.

 

The party's are so close these days.

[The Fish 10682]

Fish, there is no right wing or left wing anymore and trying to paint the parties in that way is pointless.

 

Labour abandoned a lot of principles to gain power under Tony. I remember so many hard core traditional union men couldn't believe what happened simply to gain power.

 

A lot of them seemed under the impression that Tony would revert to the left once in power.

 

The party's are so close these days.

There is a left wing and there is a right wing. The Tories, LibDem and Labour simply aren't part of that conversation. As an aside, there should be differences in opinion, there should be partisan politics. That way we wouldn't be suffering this current nonsense, where none of the leading parties are standing for anything other than election.

 

There's value in protecting a nation's sovereignty and there is value in joining a global community. There's a whole chasm of grey between those two and they should be discussed and argued over by great minds. But we don't have great minds, we have "Dave" and Millibland. People aren't getting into politics to do anything. They're getting into politics to attain power.

 

The tories abandoned a lot of their principles to regain power from "New Labour". They're as much about the cult of personality as Blair was. Cameron banging on about "Big Society". Madness.

 

But this is what we've got and this is why I spoil my ballot. I don't agree with any of them on enough of their policies to lend them my support and I'm all to aware that the bullshit lines we're fed on the run up to election will be swept aside once they realise the most important thing to career politicians once they're in power, is retaining that power.

 

I lean left, and make no bones about it. However, I don't and won't vote Labour in this guise. You would vote Tory, regardless.

 

It's like it's a game to you, because you're in a fortunate enough position to operate within that slice of society that isn't much affected either way. I know a few lost their jobs on here as a consequence of the Tory policies, and you were oblivious to this and celebrated. he reason people get riled is because despite very real risks to their jobs, you celebrated.

 

 

Edit:- second para was going to have more examples but I obviously must have become sidetracked

Edited July 25, 2012 by The Fish

[CleeToonFan 1]

I'm centrist . Tuition fees were too cheap to the point where unis tried getting more foreign students for the money, meaning locals get fucked over as there's less places for them. Also University is becoming too common (as in more people going not more lower class people, which is a good thing) an activity to the point where every small town has its own university with thousands of students, making degrees worthless. A hike means not only are universities getting more money from locals (meaning more money spent on the education) less people will think 'fuck it I'll just go to university then' if they don't know what to do. Less people collecting debts over a media degree from manchester metropolitan can only be a good thing (I only go to an average Uni as it is, although it is good at history. I also realise im doing a degree with no real world use but hey I enjoy history so I may as well do what I enjoy.) Sorry for the digression it's just I've had to listen to the tuition fees bullshit for so long as if it's relevant to the rest of the nation. Also labour were going to raise them anyway so that one is always null and void.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

There is a left wing and there is a right wing. The Tories, LibDem and Labour simply aren't part of that conversation. As an aside, there should be differences in opinion, there should be partisan politics. That way we wouldn't be suffering this current nonsense, where none of the leading parties are standing for anything other than election.

 

There's value in protecting a nation's sovereignty and there is value in joining a global community. There's a whole chasm of grey between those two and they should be discussed and argued over by great minds. But we don't have great minds, we have "Dave" and Millibland. People aren't getting into politics to do anything. They're getting into politics to attain power.

 

The tories abandoned a lot of their principles to regain power from "New Labour". They're as much about the cult of personality as Blair was. Cameron banging on about "Big Society". Madness.

 

But this is what we've got and this is why I spoil my ballot. I don't agree with any of them on enough of their policies to lend them my support and I'm all to aware that the bullshit lines we're fed on the run up to election will be swept aside once they realise the most important thing to career politicians once they're in power, is retaining that power.

 

I lean left, and make no bones about it. However, I don't and won't vote Labour in this guise. You would vote Tory, regardless.

 

It's like it's a game to you, because you're in a fortunate enough position to operate within that slice of society that isn't much affected either way. I know a few lost their jobs on here as a consequence of the Tory policies, and you were oblivious to this and celebrated. he reason people get riled is because despite very real risks to their jobs, you celebrated.

 

 

Edit:- second para was going to have more examples but I obviously must have become sidetracked

 

Once again you personalise and talk utter shit.

 

I have never celebrated any one on here losing their job.

 

You were talking some sense up until then.

 

Shame.

[Park Life 71]

It is inevitable that the eurozone will collapse under the pressure of neoliberal economic policies being imposed upon it to attempt to replicate the export-led mercantilism of East Asia, which will drag the Third World, dependant upon remittances sent home from cheap immigrant labour, and the heavily export-dependant East Asia, and its trading partners, into a global recession, thereby straining their abilities to finance U.S. foreign debts and deficits, leading to a sharp weakening of the dollar and rising import prices, with a corresponding collapse in general demand. Considering the U.S. is deindustrialized, the production capacity is minimal.

 

That is when the American populace will be driven into extreme, neo-poverty, as a relatively high standard of living has been maintained over these past decades, despite stagnant real wages as a result of the destructive competition brought about with neoliberal globalization, through working harder and longer hours, both partners working, a reliance on cheap imports and the creation of debt-based economies with a dependance upon credit and property-based consumption in order to maintain stagnant general demand. The only solution the desperate States will see at that point in order to maintain their authority and control over society will be protectionism, where each nation strives to rebuild and shield its domestic industrial base, resulting in trade wars, with devaluations and a surge in Beggar thy neighbor-policies, similar to those applied by Germany in the eurozone, whereby real wages have been suppressed and exports subsidized so as to attract capital flows and be able to flood Southern markets with cheap, massproduced goods which have ruined local competition, with widespread misery in its wake, and that is when the current, loosely organized expressions of discontent in the shape of protests, riots and demonstrations will mushroom into greater activities under the sway of demagogues, as social unrest, political instability, economic turmoil, ethnic conflicts and class struggle continue to spread.

 

What is needed in order to prevent the above scenario and put an end to the current economic crisis and the equilibrium of stagnation of the past decades is a controlled dismantling of the eurozone, built upon mercantilism, and a replacement of it with an international system similar to Bretton Woods of the Postwar-era, which aims to make possible and incentivize domestic demand-led socioeconomic development and fair international trade, through regulation of currencies, exchange rates and capital flows, implementation of economic regulations and taxes on a global basis and the creation of an international minimum level with regards to wages, conditions, compensation, safety and influence, so as to move power over policymaking back into the hands of national governments and ensure progressive global competition based upon knowledge, competence, skill and innovation, rather than lower wages, lower taxes, worse conditions and insecurity.

 

This needs to be combined on a national level across the world, in particular in export-dependant nations such as Germany, Brazil, Russia and China, with a Green New Deal, of massive jobs programs, public investment and societal initiaitves in all economic areas, ranging from construction of infrastructure and affordable housing, generous, robust social insurance aswell as strong labour rights and trade unions to research and development, strict regulation of natural monopolies and public services and rising real wages in line with productivity growth, financed through progressive taxation, which is made possible through the aforementioned international system which prevents nations who attempt to pursue long-term policies such as these from being punished through capital flight, offshoring of production, tax evasion and speculative attacks, and all of this combined, both directly, through employment of construction workers, industrial workers, architects, engineers etc. for infrastructural projects, and indirectly, through higher disposable incomes as expenses decline when profit-motives are removed from e.g. electricity, railroads and mass transportation, leads to increased purchasing power and consumer confidence, leading to rising general demand and thereby increased profits and income to private and public sectors, resulting in investments in hiring and expanding production, which in turn leads to rising economic activity and falling unemployment, with increased revenue from taxation and trade which can be utilized to promote further socioeconomic development and pay down on debts and deficits.

 

The outlook is grim, I only hope that mass movements of the people, such as Occupy in the U.S and Indignados in Spain, will be able to force through change from below, as happened in the 1930s, which culminated in the New Deal and the Postwar-Golden Age, before we descend into a Great Depression.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Park Life

[The Fish 10682]

I'm centrist . Tuition fees were too cheap to the point where unis tried getting more foreign students for the money, meaning locals get fucked over as there's less places for them. Also University is becoming too common (as in more people going not more lower class people, which is a good thing) an activity to the point where every small town has its own university with thousands of students, making degrees worthless. A hike means not only are universities getting more money from locals (meaning more money spent on the education) less people will think 'fuck it I'll just go to university then' if they don't know what to do. Less people collecting debts over a media degree from manchester metropolitan can only be a good thing (I only go to an average Uni as it is, although it is good at history. I also realise im doing a degree with no real world use but hey I enjoy history so I may as well do what I enjoy.) Sorry for the digression it's just I've had to listen to the tuition fees bullshit for so long as if it's relevant to the rest of the nation. Also labour were going to raise them anyway so that one is always null and void.

If degrees are too commonplace make getting into Uni harder. Don't price out the locals. That way you get the best of Britain at Uni regardless of financial means and the best of foreign students who still have to pay for the privilege.

 

People want to get a further qualification after A-level? Open 'Centres for Further Education' and teach "Health and Socialcare" qualifications there. There should be a difference between someone getting a 2:1 in English Lit from Durham and someone getting a 2:1 in Marketing and Media from Leeds Met.

 

Uni's should be hard to get into, they should cost the government plenty and the student nothing.

 

Charging fees for students is a typically backward way of handling the problem, genuinely capable people will be unable to get through Uni now, (or be so hamstrung by the end of it they've little chance of doing anything beyond paying off their debt) and rich but dim kids will still go through. Now that you're not getting the brightest students your test scores go down, so what's the answer to that? More targets? Stop the lecturers educating the kids and have them teach them to pass exams instead? It's working so well with the GCSEs, isn't it?

 

A friends girlfriend is a teacher and when she was laughing about how poor the standard of English that the kids she taught Sociology to had I asked her why she didn't do something about it. She said that the English department get plenty of funding, it's up to them to get this right.

 

Brilliant.

 

We're getting more faith schools where the kids are being taught creationism, we're getting more faith schools where the kids are being taught to revile the west. It drives me mad and saddling students with £30k debt is symptomatic of a broken system that's just getting worse.

[The Fish 10682]

Once again you personalise and talk utter shit.

 

I have never celebrated any one on here losing their job.

 

You were talking some sense up until then.

 

Shame.

I didn't say you celebrated them losing their jobs. Read the post again.