Meenzer 15408 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Call me nihlistic but I'm willing to say that life's always been fairly shit for most people throughout history. I don't see why human nature would change radically now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Agree but there have always been movements to improve it. And even in recent times we can see unified visions from western countries. Resisting Nazi Germany, then the Soviets. Before that, for Britain, Empire. Now we have nothing but negative fear driven threats because the political class have run out of ideas. So you get warnings about not leaving the EU, warnings about Scottish independence, warnings about socialism, even climate change can be added to this list. Because as far as the political class was concerned, we'd arrived. End of history. There was no positive vision to sell apart from 'more of the same'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) As an aside, this article by Tim Farron is interesting, concerning what needs to happen for the Tories to be ousted. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/progressives-defeat-tories-next-election-2024?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard In a nutshell we abandon the idea of working with the SNP, Labour stands down in about 100 rural seats that they will never win but the LDs could, and the LDs stand down more or less everywhere else. At least I think that's what he's saying. EDIT - would have the benefit of allowing Labour to remain "pure" ideologically while reassuring everyone outside of urban centres that there was a steadying hand on the wheel. Presumably for a single coalition government within which we can achieve electoral reform. Edited January 17, 2020 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, ewerk said: That's EXACTLY what I said. I got the same treatment for suggesting it's harmful for current MPs to slag off New Labour needlessly. I didn't mention bringing back Blairism/Centrism or whatever only it'll do Labour more favours to celebrate these achievements rather than the opposite. The majority of the manifesto was very popular among people polled but dislike of the leadership & the Brexit policy fucked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tom said: I got the same treatment for suggesting it's harmful for current MPs to slag off New Labour needlessly. What treatment is that then? You make snarky comments consistently rather than tackling actual arguments and then get dismissive comments thrown at you? ewerk spends more than enough of his time baiting me as he well knows. Bloody hell man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 You plucked an argument out of fucking nowhere. That treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21315 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rayvin said: What treatment is that then? You make snarky comments consistently rather than tackling actual arguments and then get dismissive comments thrown at you? ewerk spends more than enough of his time baiting me as he well knows. Bloody hell man. Hold on. Do you think it's right for newly elected labour MPs to insult their predecessors in the worst possible way, by calling them Thatcherites? You dont see anything wrong about that? Do you think it will promote party unity? Its ridiculous, its needlessly offensive, its counter productive, and fuck off Momentum, you share plenty of blame in destroying this country. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30266 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 For the record, IMO the biggest problem with Labour in the last election was Corbyn. Not necessarily his policies but the man himself. The public didn’t like him and they trusted him even less. When I look at the candidates now my main concern is electability and RLB doesn’t have it. The only one who I think can appeal to the general public and deliver a Labour government is Starmer. That should be the main concern of anyone voting for leader. Who has the best chance of becoming PM. If that makes me a centrist/Tory then so be it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21813 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 we have to crush the extreme fringe that still think they're in control: McClusky, Milne, Fisher, Murphy etc. if they get what they want and RLB wins, the country really is fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Renton said: Hold on. Do you think it's right for newly elected labour MPs to insult their predecessors in the worst possible way, by calling them Thatcherites? You dont see anything wrong about that? Do you think it will promote party unity? Its ridiculous, its needlessly offensive, its counter productive, and fuck off Momentum, you share plenty of blame in destroying this country. I said earlier it was a needless dig at Blair. Do you want me to say something stronger? It's not as if she's a high profile MP or anything, she's just a fringe left winger. I believe that the moderates within the party will probably win this fight, and get Starmer elected - but all of this rounding on the left wing side is going to set up a siege mentality that is going to create problems. If the moderates win, it has to be with the consent of the left. Let the fringe left wingers make their comments, it's not like there aren't plenty of people in the moderate wing calling Corbyn a Tory enabler so let's not pretend this is one way traffic. In fact, it's been the moderates over the course of the past 4 years who have been the divisive ones. They set the entire PLP against the membership ffs. But now of course it's all about unity because now, the moderates are returning to save the day. Hypocritical bullshit. Have tantrums, get your way, close up shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30266 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, Rayvin said: I said earlier it was a needless dig at Blair. Do you want me to say something stronger? It's not as if she's a high profile MP or anything, she's just a fringe left winger. I believe that the moderates within the party will probably win this fight, and get Starmer elected - but all of this rounding on the left wing side is going to set up a siege mentality that is going to create problems. If the moderates win, it has to be with the consent of the left. Let the fringe left wingers make their comments, it's not like there aren't plenty of people in the moderate wing calling Corbyn a Tory enabler so let's not pretend this is one way traffic. In fact, it's been the moderates over the course of the past 4 years who have been the divisive ones. They set the entire PLP against the membership ffs. But now of course it's all about unity because now, the moderates are returning to save the day. Hypocritical bullshit. Have tantrums, get your way, close up shop. So it’s the moderates who have been proven right that are to blame? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, ewerk said: For the record, IMO the biggest problem with Labour in the last election was Corbyn. Not necessarily his policies but the man himself. The public didn’t like him and they trusted him even less. When I look at the candidates now my main concern is electability and RLB doesn’t have it. The only one who I think can appeal to the general public and deliver a Labour government is Starmer. That should be the main concern of anyone voting for leader. Who has the best chance of becoming PM. If that makes me a centrist/Tory then so be it. No no, I'm the Tory because I'm enabling them. I'll vote for Starmer to be the next defeated Labour leader too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, ewerk said: So it’s the moderates who have been proven right that are to blame? Blame for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21813 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, Rayvin said: I said earlier it was a needless dig at Blair. Do you want me to say something stronger? It's not as if she's a high profile MP or anything, she's just a fringe left winger. I believe that the moderates within the party will probably win this fight, and get Starmer elected - but all of this rounding on the left wing side is going to set up a siege mentality that is going to create problems. If the moderates win, it has to be with the consent of the left. Let the fringe left wingers make their comments, it's not like there aren't plenty of people in the moderate wing calling Corbyn a Tory enabler so let's not pretend this is one way traffic. In fact, it's been the moderates over the course of the past 4 years who have been the divisive ones. They set the entire PLP against the membership ffs. But now of course it's all about unity because now, the moderates are returning to save the day. Hypocritical bullshit. Have tantrums, get your way, close up shop. the membership backed an unelectable leader. the PLP did what they had to do. they're not to blame for ed miliband changing the rules in 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: the membership backed an unelectable leader. the PLP did what they had to do. they're not to blame for ed miliband changing the rules in 2014 The PLP had to make an inconsequential and doomed rebellion that only ensured that the Corbyn project would last longer as it entrenched attitudes amongst the membership, and which ultimately led to all the name calling now? Please advise what on earth that ridiculously childish display achieved? EDIT - I just checked, and it turns out that Miliband's move was "overwhelmingly backed by a special conference the year before it was implemented". So it's not like one man took us blindly into populism, the whole fucking party signed up to it. Edited January 17, 2020 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21813 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 unfortunately two completely uninspiring people (smith and eagles) put themselves forward. i don't think the PLP was wrong in trying to remove corbyn - they could see what was coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 It was politically inept, but I guess they can comfort themselves with the notion that it was true to their principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21813 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 corbyn is politically inept, which explains the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) I think the thing I miss most about Blair and the years associated with him, is that the Labour Party genuinely looked like the adults in the room. They knew what they were doing, where they were going, no soul searching. They had a vision, and ok, it only had a 12 year shelf life, but it was a very stable 12 years. There is no one within the Labour Party now that looks anything like that. We're all kind of hoping that Starmer might be about to pull us around somehow just by virtue of appearing competent, but he's just another opportunistic leadership candidate - he doesn't have a plan. He has no committed and functional team of MPs with a clear vision behind him. He will be taking over a divisive mess caused by a party that no longer believes, deep down, that it should be a united entity. I mean come on, he's not going to win next time out. Labour has no one who could. The only person I genuinely believe could restore some Blairite semblance of order is Cooper, and she isn't running - and even if she was, the paucity of talent within Labour is staggering. Edited January 17, 2020 by Rayvin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: corbyn is politically inept, which explains the move. Fight fire with fire. Smart. I mean, I wouldn't consider a race to the bottom in stupidity to be smart at all actually, but then I'm stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30266 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Rayvin has definitely taken the ‘stupid’ digs to heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5185 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, ewerk said: Rayvin has definitely taken the ‘stupid’ digs to heart. Actually no, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30266 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 That’s only because you didn’t understand it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44399 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Lads man. Let's all stop arguing about politics and just have a big Friday night wank. We'll start at 7pm. Who's with me? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21813 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Gemmill said: Lads man. Let's all stop arguing about politics and just have a big Friday night wank. We'll start at 7pm. Who's with me? tyson fury, i expect. he'll have already had at least 4 by now today so may take him some time to hit his target of 7 a day 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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