Politics

[Rayvin 5186]

I'd readily take a Blair if it was one with a stronger commitment to left wing views concerning capitalism and the environment.

 

Late stage-capitalism is killing the world at this point, and centrism just isn't going to fix that fast enough. I appreciate that we can't manage to get the public to agree that the left is the answer but whoever we put forward needs to appear centrist and push as far left as they can get away with.

 

And more than anything else, they need to reform the political system to prevent the Tories ever getting back in, even if that means that Labour never get a majority again either.

 

Wouldn't hurt for them to work on properly educating people either.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Rayvin

[Renton 21322]

41 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Most of the manifesto was very well received, but seen as impossible to deliver in one hit. 

 

Talked to my Dad about this this morning as it happens. I think it was a huge issue. People in this country are naturally small c conservatives. The manifesto was way too ambitious. This is also true from a practical perspective. You can't turn on the money taps and spend efficiently over that timeframe. 

[Monkeys Fist 42069]

Aye, I love the idea of renationalising core services, but there are more pressing issues, like NHS and holding together the Union. 
 

Having said that, a possible way to do it ( which I’ve just pulled out of my arse, so fire away ) on the railways would be to gradually removed the contracts for each line as they expire, replacing them with the new British Rail. 
No enormous one-off cost, allows time to correct any teething troubles on a smaller scale etc. 
Whether that would also work for utilities I don’t know, but it’d be a start, and if they could do a Mussolini and get the trains running in time, at a reasonable price, it’d be a massive vote winner, particularly in the South where no one talks about anything except how shit trains are 

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21814]

21 minutes ago, Tom said:

I think Blair’s legacy gets stronger & stronger every single day we have to tolerate the cruelty of tory austerity.

Theres a video of Gordon Brown doing the rounds on twitter where he rattles off all the achievements of new labour and in the current climate it really is quite spectacular.

Shame Corbyn and his crew couldn’t bring themselves to talk up ANY of Blair’s achievements in office. You know, that time when life this country was actually alright.

There were even momentum videos putting Blair’s face alongside Cameron and May - as if he was a bad guy too. Disowning the most successful labour leader of a generation has been one of momentum’s biggest strategic fuck ups. 

[Rayvin 5186]

9 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Talked to my Dad about this this morning as it happens. I think it was a huge issue. People in this country are naturally small c conservatives. The manifesto was way too ambitious. This is also true from a practical perspective. You can't turn on the money taps and spend efficiently over that timeframe. 

 

I also think the plan was too much. But I think it was clear that they had no expectation of winning power and implementing any of it.

 

I actually think they worked out early doors that this election was going to be a disaster.

[Dr Gloom 21814]

3 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

 

Approx 40% didn't vote Labour because of Corbyn. Which still leaves approx 30% that didn't vote because of other reasons. I made this point on Thursday night before the data was out. 

 

Trying to pin this ALL on Brexit or All on Corbyn is not going fix anything. It's multifaceted and was massively manipulated that was by the press. Job done by the Barclays and Murdochs.

 

People actually disliked the policies of properly funded public services and an end to homelessness because they believed they were going to be taxed to the hilt ffs

It’s a lot to do with Corbyn and a lot to do with Brexit and his failure to take a position. Every labour leader faces the same hostile right wing press - it’s nothing new. 

[Rayvin 5186]

Step 1 - get a centrist, safe Blairite into power with loads of safe policies and a promise to implement PR.

 

Step 2 - do all the left wing shit next time out cos under PR it looks a lot better:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-results-pr-alternative-voting-system-tories-labour-hung-a9246661.html

[Tom 14011]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Shame Corbyn and his crew couldn’t bring themselves to talk up ANY of Blair’s achievements in office. You know, that time when life this country was actually alright.

There were even momentum videos putting Blair’s face alongside Cameron and May - as if he was a bad guy too. Disowning the most successful labour leader of a generation has been one of momentum’s biggest strategic fuck ups. 

I’ve never had anything to do with momentum. Some of the stuff they do is helpful but I have a lot of gripes.

Some of the kids are too young to have any idea of the transformation the country undertook and how the poorest in society benefitted.

They used terms like “blue labour” to describe anyone remotely pragmatic, it’s harmful. They describe basic policies & principles as “radical” which does a lot of harm, especially with older voters.

Welfare reforms to ensure people aren’t dying in their homes or kids aren’t going to school malnourished aren’t “radical” they’re the very least the government should be doing for their people.

[Tom 14011]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Step 1 - get a centrist, safe Blairite into power with loads of safe policies and a promise to implement PR.

 

Step 2 - do all the left wing shit next time out cos under PR it looks a lot better:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-results-pr-alternative-voting-system-tories-labour-hung-a9246661.html

Number 1. is going to be absolutely impossible to implement.

[NJS 4371]

24 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Talked to my Dad about this this morning as it happens. I think it was a huge issue. People in this country are naturally small c conservatives. The manifesto was way too ambitious. This is also true from a practical perspective. You can't turn on the money taps and spend efficiently over that timeframe. 

I agree - but I'd add that a lot of older cunts like you and me have had the ambition beaten out of us by the decades.

[ewerk 30266]

14 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Aye, I love the idea of renationalising core services, but there are more pressing issues, like NHS and holding together the Union. 
 

Having said that, a possible way to do it ( which I’ve just pulled out of my arse, so fire away ) on the railways would be to gradually removed the contracts for each line as they expire, replacing them with the new British Rail. 
No enormous one-off cost, allows time to correct any teething troubles on a smaller scale etc. 
Whether that would also work for utilities I don’t know, but it’d be a start, and if they could do a Mussolini and get the trains running in time, at a reasonable price, it’d be a massive vote winner, particularly in the South where no one talks about anything except how shit trains are 

 

 

Errrr, I think that’s exactly what Labour were proposing. 
 

I mean it really says something about how the message was delivered when that wasn’t made clear to someone like you.

[NJS 4371]

15 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Aye, I love the idea of renationalising core services, but there are more pressing issues, like NHS and holding together the Union. 
 

Having said that, a possible way to do it ( which I’ve just pulled out of my arse, so fire away ) on the railways would be to gradually removed the contracts for each line as they expire, replacing them with the new British Rail. 
No enormous one-off cost, allows time to correct any teething troubles on a smaller scale etc. 
Whether that would also work for utilities I don’t know, but it’d be a start, and if they could do a Mussolini and get the trains running in time, at a reasonable price, it’d be a massive vote winner, particularly in the South where no one talks about anything except how shit trains are 

 

 

I think that was the plan mooted in 2017 - franchise expiration works for the trains but maybes not for the others as it happens.

 

 

[Howmanheyman 32738]

21 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Aye, I love the idea of renationalising core services, but there are more pressing issues, like NHS and holding together the Union. 
 

Having said that, a possible way to do it ( which I’ve just pulled out of my arse, so fire away ) on the railways would be to gradually removed the contracts for each line as they expire, replacing them with the new British Rail. 
No enormous one-off cost, allows time to correct any teething troubles on a smaller scale etc. 
Whether that would also work for utilities I don’t know, but it’d be a start, and if they could do a Mussolini and get the trains running in time, at a reasonable price, it’d be a massive vote winner, particularly in the South where no one talks about anything except how shit trains are 

 

 

I heard the 9.45 from Rome to Turin was always late. Notorious for it. 

[ewerk 30266]

3 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

 

Dunno like, Renton and Ewerk have been pretty adamant it's all Corbyns fault 

Corbyn was 90% of the problem for me. On reflection I don’t think it’s fair to say it was 90% his fault. He is a terrible leader in so many ways but what really did for him was that he was the perfect bogeyman for the right and in the media.

They could throw so much mud at him and a lot of it stuck because of his past actions, his failure to address problems within his party and his refusal to come out swinging.

I said over and over that it wasn’t the message but the messenger. I’m not saying anyone else would have guaranteed a Labour government this time round but certainly in 2017 and this time round a hung parliament was an achievable aim.

[Gemmill 44401]

That was a big part of his problem, the fact that he wanted to Gandhi his way through debates and interviews. You can't do that at the best of times, but especially with a party behaving as underhand as the Tories. The they go low, we go high stuff is fine to an extent, but you've got to stand your corner as well. 

[Monkeys Fist 42069]

29 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Errrr, I think that’s exactly what Labour were proposing. 
 

I mean it really says something about how the message was delivered when that wasn’t made clear to someone like you.

 

29 minutes ago, NJS said:

I think that was the plan mooted in 2017 - franchise expiration works for the trains but maybes not for the others as it happens.

 

 

Well, there we are …

 

I’ll be announcing my bid for leadership soon. 

[Kid Dynamite 6987]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

And this is why we are fucking doomed to a far right tory government forever. 

 

I'm now one of the older posters on this board, I remember with absolute clarity the Thatcher years, Michael Foot, Millitant, and Hatton. I'm old enough to remember what it took for Kinnock, Smith and then Blair to reform the party and get elected. I'm old enough to have witnessed the transformation Blair made to this country. And I am acutely aware of history repeating itself. 

 

Massive respect for the likes of Tom for being on the door steps fighting for what he believes in. Zero respect for the like of J69 who snipe from the sidelines with their ideological bullshit while the country burns. 

 

The feeling is mutual. Put your dummy back in and tell me what YOU are going to do to fix this?

[Kid Dynamite 6987]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I think Blair’s legacy gets stronger & stronger every single day we have to tolerate the cruelty of tory austerity.

Theres a video of Gordon Brown doing the rounds on twitter where he rattles off all the achievements of new labour and in the current climate it really is quite spectacular.

 

To some degree, yes. Starting a never ending war in the middle East over fuck all can't be brushed under the carpet though 

[Tom 14011]

Just now, Kid Dynamite said:

 

To some degree, yes. Starting a never ending war in the middle East over fuck all can't be brushed under the carpet though 

There isn’t a single British government in history that wouldn’t have joined the USA in that war.

But. Still a mistake.

[Kid Dynamite 6987]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

There isn’t a single British government in history that wouldn’t have joined the USA in that war.

But. Still a mistake.

 

Thats impossible to know. And it was a big fucking mistake. As in dead children type of mistake 

[Kid Dynamite 6987]

And a Corbyn government definitely wouldn't have gone to war... 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Kid Dynamite

[ewerk 30266]

Aye but then again Corbyn would never have been able to get into government.

Honestly, you kill a few hundred thousand Iraqis and you never hear the end of it.

[Tom 14011]

5 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

And a Corbyn government definitely wouldn't have gone to war... 

Exactly. That’s another reason why there isn’t  a Corbyn government.

[Kid Dynamite 6987]

Anyway, it's job done by the Tories.

 

Whilst the left rips itself apart arguing about whether it's Corbyns fault or Brexits fault, or whether we need to lurch to the centre.... The BBC, Kussenberg, the Andrew Neil mess, right wing Rabbi doing their mates a favour, Boris lying to the Queen, funding his GF with tax payers money, assaulting his current GF, 80% of their ads being lies etc etc etc all gets forgotten about.

 

The propaganda machine does its job and the morons remain happy with their lot. 

[Dr Gloom 21814]

The Iraq war was a colossal foreign policy fuck up. I marched against it in London and didn’t vote Labour in the following two elections, in protest.

However, it isn’t the only thing that defines the Blair government. As shameful as it was, it is a real shame some see it as his only defining legacy. His achievements should have been talked up on the campaign trail, not disowned. It could have been used to appeal to floating voters - remember that decade under a labour government before the global financial crisis, it was quite good, wasn’t it?

Blair is a social democrat. His policies won elections and improved people’s lives. It’s a shame the Corbyn cult chose to ignore that.