Politics

[Renton 21307]

I admire your optimism. I would say that the one thing the last 3 years has shown us is things are going to get worse and I personally don't know where the bottom of the abyss is. I haven't lost faith in politicians, after last night and the response on social media, I've lost faith in people. How do you fix that?

[ewerk 30266]

Parliament votes against a recess for the Tory party conference.

Parliament 7:0 Johnson  

[Rayvin 5179]

20 minutes ago, Renton said:

I admire your optimism. I would say that the one thing the last 3 years has shown us is things are going to get worse and I personally don't know where the bottom of the abyss is. I haven't lost faith in politicians, after last night and the response on social media, I've lost faith in people. How do you fix that?

 

Just try to remember it's only some of the people. And they were always there anyway, nothing has materially changed. The fact that the Tories are so determined to avoid this second referendum demonstrates to me that they know there isn't a majority for leave now. That should be encouraging to the rest of us. It's also why Brexiters are now talking about how "two thirds of the country voted to leave, based on constituencies". They know they don't have a majority. If the real people of this country get a chance to put a stop to this, they will.

[Dr Gloom 21813]

30 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What do you mean? It seems unlikely to me that the Tories will hang onto him if he loses an election. It's not even very clear to me that they'll hang onto him if we don't leave by October 31st. He's very vulnerable, which is why he's doubling down so hard.

 

I think once Brexit is resolved, things will settle down - which is why the sooner we have that referendum, the sooner Boris loses his legitimacy to campaign on behalf of "the people" - either his thunder is stolen, or the people change their minds.

i'm not sure he will lose the election - trump won one using these tactics. but even if he doesn't, it feels to me like we these are unchartered waters. if there is a referendum and the result is overturned, or A50 is revoked, things could get much, much more sinister. there are darker forces than johnson waiting in the wings to capitalise if the "will of the people" is denied. 

ok, it's a global trend. the rise of strong man populism is happening all over the world but aren't you surprised it's happening here? the way johnson went on the attack last night, without a shred of humility, the language he used, was right out of the trump playbook and it felt like a turning point.

the brits are supposed to be pragmatic, conservative and sensible. markets are looking what is happening here right now like we're an emerging economy. we're known for stability not political crisis. 

 

 

[PaddockLad 17079]

13 minutes ago, Renton said:

I admire your optimism. I would say that the one thing the last 3 years has shown us is things are going to get worse and I personally don't know where the bottom of the abyss is. I haven't lost faith in politicians, after last night and the response on social media, I've lost faith in people. How do you fix that?

 

Don't know. Are we 45-55s the last generation with a pathetic empire complex?? Probably not now thanks to the internet. Hate spreads so quickly. But it still remains a tiny minority who are properly motivated.

 

Trouble is there are powerful  people telling your average common or garden bar room bigot that their hate is justified and that all they need to do is put their cross in the right box and very, very complex problems like delivering on a narrow mandate an act there was no plan for and was obviously impossible to deliver partly due to the moronically binary question that was asked will be resolved with the minimum of fuss and bother and their lives will be great from now on. It's fuckin ridiculous how easily people are manipulated, that's what gives me the horrors. 

[Renton 21307]

15 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Don't know. Are we 45-55s the last generation with a pathetic empire complex?? Probably not now thanks to the internet. Hate spreads so quickly. But it still remains a tiny minority who are properly motivated.

 

Trouble is there are powerful  people telling your average common or garden bar room bigot that their hate is justified and that all they need to do is put their cross in the right box and very, very complex problems like delivering on a narrow mandate an act there was no plan for and was obviously impossible to deliver partly due to the moronically binary question that was asked will be resolved with the minimum of fuss and bother and their lives will be great from now on. It's fuckin ridiculous how easily people are manipulated, that's what gives me the horrors. 

Aye. This. With bells on. 

[Rayvin 5179]

21 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i'm not sure he will lose the election - trump won one using these tactics. but even if he doesn't, it feels to me like we these are unchartered waters. if there is a referendum and the result is overturned, or A50 is revoked, things could get much, much more sinister. there are darker forces than johnson waiting in the wings to capitalise if the "will of the people" is denied. 

ok, it's a global trend. the rise of strong man populism is happening all over the world but aren't you surprised it's happening here? the way johnson went on the attack last night, without a shred of humility, the language he used, was right out of the trump playbook and it felt like a turning point.

the brits are supposed to be pragmatic, conservative and sensible. markets are looking what is happening here right now like we're an emerging economy. we're known for stability not political crisis. 

 

 

 

Austerity is what caused all of this pent up frustration, and a vivid reaction to it was always coming - I hoped it would be a left wing one, hence my backing for Corbyn, but it was in the end a right wing one, since far right populism appears to be eternally more palatable to the centre than moderate left populism. Either way it was coming though, and we've known this for years now. Corbyn and Brexit are symptoms of the same thing, the failure of the centre. I've said this many times.

 

This doesn't mean Johnson is the only way though - if we can wrench the power from the right, a left wing program could settle things down as well. I don't really believe that there is a large groundswell of opinion even among Brexit leave voters for a far right takeover of the country. Brexit itself is just such a toxic phenomenon that it's consuming the entire discourse.

 

The culture war is indeed global, and it will continue to have an impact here and elsewhere, but if we on the left and centre actually engage with the issues properly, we can fix this. And Corbyn's Labour manifesto would address a lot of it. We need to push back against corporate globalism from a left wing position.

 

More immediately though, I think people's enthusiasm for Brexit will die down once Boris is out of the way - I mean after him, who will spearhead it?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 21813]

there's one thing this referendum should show is is there is no place in this country for direct democracy. what a fucking shambles. 

[Rayvin 5179]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

there's one thing this referendum should show is is there is no place in this country for direct democracy. what a fucking shambles. 

 

Fully agree with you there, although we do need one to cancel out the original.

 

We also need citizenship and critical thinking classes to be taught at schools as a compulsory part of the syllabus. I would personally go so far as to say eligibility to vote should depend on passing them.

[Dr Gloom 21813]

32 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Austerity is what caused all of this pent up frustration, and a vivid reaction to it was always coming - I hoped it would be a left wing one, hence my backing for Corbyn, but it was in the end a right wing one, since far right populism appears to be eternally more palatable to the centre than moderate left populism. Either way it was coming though, and we've known this for years now. Corbyn and Brexit are symptoms of the same thing, the failure of the centre. I've said this many times.

 

This doesn't mean Johnson is the only way though - if we can wrench the power from the right, a left wing program could settle things down as well. I don't really believe that there is a large groundswell of opinion even among Brexit leave voters for a far right takeover of the country. Brexit itself is just such a toxic phenomenon that it's consuming the entire discourse.

 

The culture war is indeed global, and it will continue to have an impact here and elsewhere, but if we on the left and centre actually engage with the issues properly, we can fix this. And Corbyn's Labour manifesto would address a lot of it. We need to push back against corporate globalism from a left wing position.

 

More immediately though, I think people's enthusiasm for Brexit will die down once Boris is out of the way - I mean after him, who will spearhead it?

i don't know. maybe ask this lot

 

 

 

[Rayvin 5179]

That lot will gravitate to Farage I suppose. Very limited threat from thereon out.

[NJS 4371]

Austerity didn't cause the south East outside London to vote leave. That's just pure little englander nostalgia and racism. 

[Rayvin 5179]

Just now, NJS said:

Austerity didn't cause the south East outside London to vote leave. That's just pure little englander nostalgia and racism. 

 

Jonathon Pie explained this best - there were the leave voters who were always going to vote leave no matter what (little englanders) and there was the marginal leave voters who actually delivered the victory for leave in the end because they were fucking pissed off about inequality and having to get their groceries from foodbanks.

[Dr Gloom 21813]

 

 

Jess Phillips says man arrested after trying to smash windows at her constituency offce

The Labour MP Jess Phillips, who represents Birmingham Yardley, has revealed that a man has been arrested after trying to “kick the door” of her constituency office while reportedly shouting that she was a fascist. She told LBC Radio:

I’ve only just heard about it myself but my staff had to be locked into my office while the man tried to smash the windows and kick the door, I believe. I don’t know what I can say because the man has been arrested.

[PaddockLad 17079]

29 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Jonathon Pie explained this best - there were the leave voters who were always going to vote leave no matter what (little englanders) and there was the marginal leave voters who actually delivered the victory for leave in the end because they were fucking pissed off about inequality and having to get their groceries from foodbanks.

 

I think austerity played a part but nowhere near as much as eastern European immigration. An end to freedom of movement is barely mentioned nowadays...

[Dr Gloom 21813]

fucking hell - if his own sister thinks this...

 

 

[Renton 21307]

3 hours ago, PaddockLad said:

 

I think austerity played a part but nowhere near as much as eastern European immigration. An end to freedom of movement is barely mentioned nowadays...

 

Labour voted to retain FoM yesterday. Meaning any deal we negotiated would be Norway  I guess. I still think this is the best possible Brexit outcome.

[Alex 34846]

Relies on Labour getting in though

[Rayvin 5179]

12 hours ago, Alex said:

Relies on Labour getting in though

 

They won't outright but i still think their strategy is the right one, leave the Lib Dems to take the extreme remainers and Labour can try to hoover up everyone else.

 

I think victory can be achieved in a GE or in a referendum, but the latter is the safer bet. At least I think it is.

 

72% of 2017 Labour leave voters said they wouldnt vote Tory under any circumstances. It's a hard nut to crack for Johnson.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Rayvin

[RobinRobin 11137]

12 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

there's one thing this referendum should show is is there is no place in this country for direct democracy. what a fucking shambles. 

There never was such a place.  MPs are elected to make decisions, not pass them back to the idiots who voted for them in the first place, when it becomes too difficult for those MPs to decide which option is more likely to result in them losing their seat.

[Isegrim 9733]

16 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

there's one thing this referendum should show is is there is no place in this country for direct democracy. what a fucking shambles. 

At least there should have been more planning involved. You didn’t have to listen to the name of Nostradamus that a major decision like this would lead to big frictions when decided by a single majority, especially with the result doomed to be rather close.

[Renton 21307]

1 hour ago, Isegrim said:

At least there should have been more planning involved. You didn’t have to listen to the name of Nostradamus that a major decision like this would lead to big frictions when decided by a single majority, especially with the result doomed to be rather close.

 

Should never have been allowed. But if it was, the following requirements were essential imo:

1) Credible, actionable leave option.

2) All country's of the UK needed to vote for it.

3) Special status for NI if leave won (if not covered by 1).

4) Mandatory. If any evidence of wrong doing, the referendum is cancelled.

[ewerk 30266]

Yeah but Cameron was confident he’d walk it so there was hardly any need for failsafes when you’re dealing with the future of the country.

[Renton 21307]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

Yeah but Cameron was confident he’d walk it so there was hardly any need for failsafes when you’re dealing with the future of the country.

 

Yep. I can recall he spent a great amount of time tinkering with the exact wording of the referendum question, but no thought at all into what the ramifications of leave would be. Seems madness in retrospect. What a cunt. 

[Rayvin 5179]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

Should never have been allowed. But if it was, the following requirements were essential imo:

1) Credible, actionable leave option.

2) All country's of the UK needed to vote for it.

3) Special status for NI if leave won (if not covered by 1).

4) Mandatory. If any evidence of wrong doing, the referendum is cancelled.

 

This does seem sensible, although I'm fairly sure England-Scotland relations would be strained as Scotland eternally kept us in.