Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Meenzer said: Anyway, that's Heidi Allen, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston gone too. Can't blame them really. Yeah just saw this. It's good I guess although I'm curious as to why Grieve hasn't gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15402 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Meanwhile, closer to home: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Nick Forbes is a total waste of space, so I'm having a hard time sympathizing with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Open goal that one. Failing to oppose austerity. Next? Anyway i wasn't pointing the finger at Labour specifically. More the generation in power. See your failure to see a difference between the centre-right and centre-left is an obvious problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 So that's the independent group now on a part with the Lib Dems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, ewerk said: See your failure to see a difference between the centre-right and centre-left is an obvious problem. There was almost no difference under Miliband. Partially this was because the Tories were attempting to be the party of the centre, admittedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, ewerk said: So that's the independent group now on a part with the Lib Dems. ouch. Although I'm curious, what ideological position prevents them from teaming up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21812 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: For it not to be a distraction there need to be profound and noticeable consequences. Are there any? Also, I'm a bit lost on the first things you posted. There seems to be a lot of anti Israeli stuff but I'm seeing nothing about Jews in general. I thought they were distinct issues. Wow MPs leaving the party in disgust is not a noticeable consequence? So a Labour MP opposed to antsemitism departs and this signifies that Palestine Lives, according to Young Labour. It’s a gleeful response to a disturbing situation. No wonder it was deleted. Crass at best. Renton is spot on, this “you’re either with us or against us” mentality isn’t going to see labour elected anytime soon. The second bit I posted was about Berger being driven out because of antisemitic abuse. How much more antisemitic do things need to be before you can acknowledge there is a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: There was almost no difference under Miliband. Partially this was because the Tories were attempting to be the party of the centre, admittedly. When people think of New Labour do they think of Miliband? No. They think of Blair and Brown. Miliband was a poor leader at a time of great turmoil in British politics. He adopted policies that he felt he should have done rather than those which he truly believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: ouch. Although I'm curious, what ideological position prevents them from teaming up.. Well I'd be surprised if this Independent Group holds together past one GE so I'd say the Lib Dems will be wary of any immediate formal deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: Wow MPs leaving the party in disgust is not a noticeable consequence? So a Labour MP opposed to antsemitism departs and this signifies that Palestine Lives, according to Young Labour. It’s a gleeful response to a disturbing situation. No wonder it was deleted. Crass at best. Renton is spot on, this “you’re either with us or against us” mentality isn’t going to see labour elected anytime soon. The second bit I posted was about Berger being driven out because of antisemitic abuse. How much more antisemitic do things need to be before you can acknowledge there is a problem? I need it to be visible. Was she driven out by antisemitic abuse on Twitter or in the party itself? Would be amazed if the latter although yes that would clearly signify that some people need to be thrown out. On Twitter I suspect there is no way of verifying who is saying what or if they are Labour members at all. I dont see what the deal about the Palestine lives thing is. A dog whistle I assume you're saying. The implication being that her resigning demonstrates that a blow has been struck to an oppressive regime in the middle east? I'm not sure that's antisemitic. I'm not trying not to see this by the way (you could argue I am if you see an attack on Israel to be equivalent to an attack on Jews though), but i honestly don't see any real and tangible effects that this stuff is having day to day. I can see people living and dying on the streets, I can see racism on the rise, and i can see the county being torn apart... But I can't see any actual impact that what i assume are a number of Twitter based antisemites are having on the lives of people in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, ewerk said: When people think of New Labour do they think of Miliband? No. They think of Blair and Brown. Miliband was a poor leader at a time of great turmoil in British politics. He adopted policies that he felt he should have done rather than those which he truly believed. You were the one who introduced New Labour into this. I'm not saying their policies fucked the young, I actually agree that they didn't. But the generation in control then, have definitely fucked the young. New Labour or otherwise. Which was my point. I was just having a dig at Renton really, he washed his hands too readily of all of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, ewerk said: Well I'd be surprised if this Independent Group holds together past one GE so I'd say the Lib Dems will be wary of any immediate formal deal. Fair point I guess. Where do they go afterwards though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: You were the one who introduced New Labour into this. I'm not saying their policies fucked the young, I actually agree that they didn't. But the generation in control then, have definitely fucked the young. New Labour or otherwise. Which was my point. I was just having a dig at Renton really, he washed his hands too readily of all of this Be a bit more specific then who you're directing your criticism against. Your idea of the centre is a bit broad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Fair point I guess. Where do they go afterwards though. Who knows. The centre-right and centre left are quite different. I'd imagine their motivations for joining either the Tories or Labour were very different too. Agreeing policy positions outside of Brexit and not hating the Jews could be quite troublesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17079 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, ewerk said: Failure to address the housing problem aside, how did New Labour fuck the youth? Pursuing the basic western post industrial political model where corporations & PLC's run the country and any given government are there just to rubber stamp their bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21812 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I need it to be visible. Was she driven out by antisemitic abuse on Twitter or in the party itself? Would be amazed if the latter although yes that would clearly signify that some people need to be thrown out. On Twitter I suspect there is no way of verifying who is saying what or if they are Labour members at all. I dont see what the deal about the Palestine lives thing is. A dog whistle I assume you're saying. The implication being that her resigning demonstrates that a blow has been struck to an oppressive regime in the middle east? I'm not sure that's antisemitic. I'm not trying not to see this by the way (you could argue I am if you see an attack on Israel to be equivalent to an attack on Jews though), but i honestly don't see any real and tangible effects that this stuff is having day to day. I can see people living and dying on the streets, I can see racism on the rise, and i can see the county being torn apart... But I can't see any actual impact that what i assume are a number of Twitter based antisemites are having on the lives of people in this country. Sigh. We’ve been over this already. Why is your memory so short on this issue? Jewish people are overly sensitive to this issue, perhaps, but you’ll have to do forgive us given the history. As for real world impact, a quick google search returns the same stuff i posted the last time we had this conversation Anti-Semitism has been on the rise in the UK, according to incidents recorded by charity the Community Security Trust (CST), which works with the community and with police forces. The CST recorded 727 anti-Semitic incidents across the UK in the first six months of 2018 - the second highest figure recorded in more than two decades. The highest-ever number was recorded in the first six months of last year (786). In the whole of 2017 there were 1,414 incidents, compared with 541 in 2008. At the time, this was the third-highest annual figure that had been recorded since the CST began in 1984. The charity defines anti-Semitism as "any malicious act aimed at Jewish people, organisations or property, where there is evidence that the victim was targeted because they are, or are believed to be, Jewish". https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45409151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, PaddockLad said: Pursuing the basic western post industrial political model where corporations & PLC's run the country and any given government are there just to rubber stamp their bullshit. You'll have to be a bit more specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21296 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, PaddockLad said: Pursuing the basic western post industrial political model where corporations & PLC's run the country and any given government are there just to rubber stamp their bullshit. Alreet Karl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21296 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 26 minutes ago, Meenzer said: Meanwhile, closer to home: This shit will lead more defections to the independent group. Bring it on, let's see if there is a tipping point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: Sigh. We’ve been over this already. Why is your memory so short on this issue? Jewish people are overly sensitive to this issue, perhaps, but you’ll have to do forgive us given the history. As for real world impact, a quick google search returns the same stuff i posted the last time we had this conversation Anti-Semitism has been on the rise in the UK, according to incidents recorded by charity the Community Security Trust (CST), which works with the community and with police forces. The CST recorded 727 anti-Semitic incidents across the UK in the first six months of 2018 - the second highest figure recorded in more than two decades. The highest-ever number was recorded in the first six months of last year (786). In the whole of 2017 there were 1,414 incidents, compared with 541 in 2008. At the time, this was the third-highest annual figure that had been recorded since the CST began in 1984. The charity defines anti-Semitism as "any malicious act aimed at Jewish people, organisations or property, where there is evidence that the victim was targeted because they are, or are believed to be, Jewish". https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45409151 Yeah but is that coming from the left or is it coming from the resurgent right? I'm not saying you're oversensitive btw, not because youre Jewish anyway. Tbh i think you are a bit oversensitive sometimes because you work in media and become totally consumed by these breaking stories, which is why i say yeah, to politicians and journalists this seems like a big deal. To ordinary people, I just dont know. But is a rise in even left wing inspired antisemitic events comparable to the number of people in poverty or forced to become homeless. We've cut support for homeless by half and have seen the number of homeless double. No one talks about that and yet the consequences are real and unimagimably sad. So when i say antisemitism in Labour is a distraction, i dont mean it isnt a serious issue, i mean that there are really bigger fish to fry based on what i have seen the consequences to be so far. Granted if there is a widespread campaign of violence against Jewish people now underway then that changes things. Edited February 20, 2019 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30265 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 50 minutes ago, Rayvin said: ouch. Although I'm curious, what ideological position prevents them from teaming up.. They're already twice as popular as the Lib Dems. Depsite the electorate not knowing who the fuck the are or what they stand for, so just like the Lib Dems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21296 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, ewerk said: They're already twice as popular as the Lib Dems. Depsite the electorate not knowing who the fuck the are or what they stand for, so just like the Lib Dems. Jeremy Corbyn, bringing Labour down to levels of popularity not seen since Michael Foot. Credit where its due like. He's done this whilst being in opposition against the worst Conservative party in living history, quite some feat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17079 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Perfect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 6 hours ago, Meenzer said: Meanwhile, closer to home: This guys policies are fucking excellent like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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