Politics

[Renton 21286]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The Norway option is Brexit in name only. It still has FOM, which IMO is the thing people will look to when judging whether or not we have actually left. Also, even Norway said the Norway option is a bad outcome - admittedly that was compared to staying in altogether, but still.

 

Could he win a GE on a Norway model footing? I doubt it. It's depressing, but there it is.

 

FOM can be controlled, as it is in many EU countries already. Norway is bino economically, but absolutely not politically. That's how you sell it. Nobody voted to make themselves or the country worse off, did they? Also I think I read a poll which said 65% of the electorate would support this option. The problem as ever is Corbyn himself. 

 

And yet you are still claiming there's nothing he can do but sit on his hands. Well, I say fuck him. History won't be kind. 

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

FOM can be controlled, as it is in many EU countries already. Norway is bino economically, but absolutely not politically. That's how you sell it. Nobody voted to make themselves or the country worse off, did they? Also I think I read a poll which said 65% of the electorate would support this option. The problem as ever is Corbyn himself. 

 

And yet you are still claiming there's nothing he can do but sit on his hands. Well, I say fuck him. History won't be kind. 

 

I'm saying there's nothing he can do until it all falls apart. The problem with that option is that it may not fall apart.

 

If you listen to certain leave voters, they absolutely did vote to make the country worse off, because that was the price of freedom.

 

You need a very compelling line on FOM to sell the Norway option.

[Renton 21286]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm saying there's nothing he can do until it all falls apart. The problem with that option is that it may not fall apart.

 

If you listen to certain leave voters, they absolutely did vote to make the country worse off, because that was the price of freedom.

 

You need a very compelling line on FOM to sell the Norway option.

 

No, you're wrong, leave voters at the time of the referendum bought the cake model. Now cakeism is dead, they say they always knew they'd be worse off. CT is a classic example. Many would love a way out though, as demonstrated by polls.

 

A strong leader could easily fight a campaign on this and win comfortably. The fact you think otherwise just shows you how low you've let your expectations get under Corbyn. Like I say, history won't treat him or his supporters kindly. 

[Alex 34828]

He's choosing to do nothing to suit his agenda is the most likely thing imo. He has been dealt a difficult hand though (as has May).

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

No, you're wrong, leave voters at the time of the referendum bought the cake model. Now cakeism is dead, they say they always knew they'd be worse off. CT is a classic example. Many would love a way out though, as demonstrated by polls.

 

A strong leader could easily fight a campaign on this and win comfortably. The fact you think otherwise just shows you how low you've let your expectations get under Corbyn. Like I say, history won't treat him or his supporters kindly. 

 

Ah, so history won't treat me kindly

 

I have never voted for a government that won, but somehow, this is all my fault.

Utter bollocks.

[Renton 21286]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ah, so history won't treat me kindly

 

I have never voted for a government that won, but somehow, this is all my fault.

Utter bollocks.

 

I was referring to momentum who have let the hard right remain in government.

 

I'm sick of this cowardice Corbyn displays. We need a proper opposition. Again Rayvin, given that most leavers favour the norway option, why don't you think it can be delivered? 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3809]

48 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah honestly I think Corbyn is a halfwit, but I still admire his principles and agree with most of what he stands for. I generally just get annoyed at the media bullshit that I consistently have to take apart in order to get to a factual understanding of his position on anything.

 

So, as much as this has turned into another Corbyn debate, all I was really saying was "Look, the media were being dishonest fucks". That no one has challenged this suggests to me that I had the right of the anti-semitism 'scandal'.

 

 

My feelings of this in a nutshell.

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I was referring to momentum who have let the hard right remain in government.

 

I'm sick of this cowardice Corbyn displays. We need a proper opposition. Again Rayvin, given that most leavers favour the norway option, why don't you think it can be delivered? 

 

Link to support that claim? If it's true, then sure, it should be on the table and Corbyn should back it.

[Renton 21286]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Link to support that claim? If it's true, then sure, it should be on the table and Corbyn should back it.

 

Quote

And by a smaller margin, Leave voters preferred the Norway-style deal too. They chose it even though they knew, based on our description, that it would leave Britain still bound by most EU regulations and with no new limits to immigration.

 

And that's without adding positive spin, such as we can leave CAP, control fisheries, and yes, control FOM to a high degree. Oh aye, and that little matter of Ireland. It's the obvious choice man and people would accept it. I favour it more than remaining, the EU doesn't deserve putting up with us any more.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/19/brexit-the-public-must-be-trusted-with-the-facts

 

 

 

 

[Alex 34828]

Ironically I think the Tories could've destroyed Labour by adopting that but they're balls deep into making Brexit appear as hard as possible with their 'will of the people' bullshit

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

 

And that's without adding positive spin, such as we can leave CAP, control fisheries, and yes, control FOM to a high degree. Oh aye, and that little matter of Ireland. It's the obvious choice man and people would accept it. I favour it more than remaining, the EU doesn't deserve putting up with us any more.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/04/19/brexit-the-public-must-be-trusted-with-the-facts

 

 

 

 

 

So all of the possible deals were hated, but the Norway one the least so. Well fair enough. On the basis of that, I would agree that Corbyn is likely pushing for what he is on the basis of being a hard Brexiter himself.

[ewerk 30254]

52 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So that's 17 million voters he has alienated right off the bat.

A certain number of those voters will have changed their mind. A large majority of those voters would never vote for Corbyn. A large number of them don't vote in general elections. Stopping Brexit would like lead to the rise in a pro-Brexit political party which would take votes from the Tories.

So there aren't 17 million votes there to be won or lost.

[Renton 21286]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

So all of the possible deals were hated, but the Norway one the least so.

 

That's democracy Dennis.

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Renton said:

 

That's democracy Dennis.

 

Well true but that means that, as Gloom mentioned earlier, we should just re-do the referendum and stay in properly. Presumably that's the least bad option going.

[ewerk 30254]

The leavers will hate the idea of re-doing the referendum. It needs to be sold as a new referendum on the deal offered. The options would be accept or remain.

[Dr Gloom 21812]

yes, it shouldn't be sold as a new in/out referendum. it's putting the terms of the deal to plebiscite and, if it looks like we've been stiffed, having the option to remain. t 

[Dr Gloom 21812]

or we could get noel edmonds to present a show where a series of punters open random boxes to decide whether it's deal or no deal with the EU 27. 

[PaddockLad 17079]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

I sit somewhere in the middle with Corbyn and can sympathise with both views (I appreciate Rayvin isn't the 'Corbynista' he's sometimes portrayed as) but I think it's a shame about Corbyn's intransigence re: Brexit which is a real issue and a shame, i.e. with a few tweaks I'd be right behind him but in some ways he is almost as bad as May because of his stubbornness (whatever the actual motive behind that actually is - I'm really not sure).

 

The way i see it after reading a couple of things lately..if he goes against Brexit he alienates Labour's northern strongholds. He's not aboit abandoning the loyal. So he's being a bit wishy washy on Brexit to make sure they  dont defect to (a possibly Farage led) ukip or even worse, a Tory party hurtling towards a hard Brexit.  Hes not ditching his base in an attempt just to grab power for himself. He could as somone said denounce Brexit and campaign for another referendum but his most loyal support base would fuckin lynch him. 

[NJS 4371]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

I was referring to momentum who have let the hard right remain in government.

 

I'm sick of this cowardice Corbyn displays. We need a proper opposition. Again Rayvin, given that most leavers favour the norway option, why don't you think it can be delivered? 

What did momentum have to do with the Blairite defeats in 2010 and 2015?

 

Do you honestly think Owen Smith or any of the others would have got 40% or more since even Blair barely managed it?

 

Is there any evidence another leader would poll higher? 

 

How do you combine your view that voters want a way out of brexit with the wipeout the libs suffered based on just another vote never mind soft terms? 

[Rayvin 5176]

 

I forget I'm not alone on here sometimes.

[Renton 21286]

12 minutes ago, NJS said:

What did momentum have to do with the Blairite defeats in 2010 and 2015?

2010 was just after the great recession. Amazing really that Brown prevented a Tory majority. 2015 Ed Miliband was inept and cowardly, persisting with the austerity lie. 

 

Do you honestly think Owen Smith or any of the others would have got 40% or more since even Blair barely managed it? 

Yes, almost certainly.

 

Quote

 

Is there any evidence another leader would poll higher? 

What type of evidence could there be for such a hypothetical question?

 

Quote

 

How do you combine your view that voters want a way out of brexit with the wipeout the libs suffered based on just another vote never mind soft terms?

Because we have FPTP system. People didn't want to risk it on the lib dems, I know that is the case for me anyway. Jesus, I thought only the likes of Rees Mogg used this argument to support his will of the people shit. Apparently not.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Renton

[NJS 4371]

Would Smith have put forward a moderately socialist manifesto as Corbyn did which increased the youth vote or would his manifesto been Milliband 2?

 

I keep reading Yvette Cooper would have trounced May - if that the case I'm sure someone would have polled on it. 

 

The lib dem support ebbs and flows - I thought 2015 was their low point as punishment for coalition but you have to look at 2017 in terms of a further rejection of their brexit position. As I keep saying we all know it's a cluster fuck but softening it to the point of satisfying sensible people unfortunately means pissing off what according to polls is still the majority. I can't see any position Corbyn could take which will satisfy everyone. 

[Alex 34828]

Don't really disagree with you on the whole but I think the binary choice of 2017 was the undoing of the Lib Dems

[ewerk 30254]

1 hour ago, PaddockLad said:

 

The way i see it after reading a couple of things lately..if he goes against Brexit he alienates Labour's northern strongholds. He's not aboit abandoning the loyal. So he's being a bit wishy washy on Brexit to make sure they  dont defect to (a possibly Farage led) ukip or even worse, a Tory party hurtling towards a hard Brexit.  Hes not ditching his base in an attempt just to grab power for himself. He could as somone said denounce Brexit and campaign for another referendum but his most loyal support base would fuckin lynch him. 

Is there polling evidence that opposing Brexit would lose him many votes?

[Renton 21286]

16 minutes ago, NJS said:

Would Smith have put forward a moderately socialist manifesto as Corbyn did which increased the youth vote or would his manifesto been Milliband 2?

 

I keep reading Yvette Cooper would have trounced May - if that the case I'm sure someone would have polled on it. 

 

The lib dem support ebbs and flows - I thought 2015 was their low point as punishment for coalition but you have to look at 2017 in terms of a further rejection of their brexit position. As I keep saying we all know it's a cluster fuck but softening it to the point of satisfying sensible people unfortunately means pissing off what according to polls is still the majority. I can't see any position Corbyn could take which will satisfy everyone. 

You honestly believe the majority of people want a hard Brexit? They don't, only the hard right and hard left (Lexiters) do. I've produced evidence in this very thread that the majority of leavers want to stay in the SM (EEA), doesn't really tally with what your saying. There's loads of other polls saying the same thing.

 

I'm sorry like, using the LD's poor polling last year is evidence people want a hard Brexit is bullshit straight out the JRM songsheet.