Politics

[Rayvin 5176]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

 You're getting easier to rile these days

There is a problem with anti-semitism within Labour, Corbyn doesn't appear to be helping the situation. The coverage isn't disproportionate among the MSM, yesterday's debate made the front pages of two out of the ten main papers.

Corbyn needed to get out in front of this and devise a plan before this became such a big issue but he hasn't. Not because he's anti-semitic but because he isn't a very good leader.

Anyone heard much lately about that Tory MP who shared an anti-Islam post last month? Probably not. That's disproportionate coverage, the attention that Labour has gotten is about right.

 

Nah, I shouldn't have gotten wound up there. Weird life circumstances atm.

 

Don't know if I agree on the coverage here. I mean we have rising knife crime in London and quite a lot of "on the ground" uproar about it - links to police cuts, failed Tory policies that are actually getting people killed. This is getting less attention than anti-semitism at the moment.

 

Can someone set out what the anti-semitic things to have happened are, as perhaps I'm missing something. To my knowledge we have:

 

1 - Twitter being full of keyboard warriors and threatening violence. I disregard this as it happens across the political spectrum to almost everyone in the public eye, and I can't imagine there's any way of knowing for sure that those involved are actually Labour members.

 

2 - A dead bird.

 

3 - A mural with questionable intent.

 

I suppose the bird is a health risk but other than that, what actual harm or serious potential harm has befallen anyone? Have the police been involved in any of these incidents? Have arrests been made?

[Christmas Tree 4685]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Nah, I shouldn't have gotten wound up there. Weird life circumstances atm.

 

Don't know if I agree on the coverage here. I mean we have rising knife crime in London and quite a lot of "on the ground" uproar about it - links to police cuts, failed Tory policies that are actually getting people killed. This is getting less attention than anti-semitism at the moment.

 

Can someone set out what the anti-semitic things to have happened are, as perhaps I'm missing something. To my knowledge we have:

 

1 - Twitter being full of keyboard warriors and threatening violence. I disregard this as it happens across the political spectrum to almost everyone in the public eye, and I can't imagine there's any way of knowing for sure that those involved are actually Labour members.

 

2 - A dead bird.

 

3 - A mural with questionable intent.

 

I suppose the bird is a health risk but other than that, what actual harm or serious potential harm has befallen anyone? Have the police been involved in any of these incidents? Have arrests been made?

 

I think the big bit you are not factoring in is that we have people living here today who survived the gas camps where 6 million of their kind were murdered. A lot of that started with the whispers, then name calling, then abuse etc.

 

Its understandable that that community more than most others is naturally very afraid with not only a surge in anti-semitism but also linked to a mainstream political movement in the way it currently is.

 

 

[Christmas Tree 4685]

The irony is that a lot of people partaking in anti-Semitic abuse were probably up in arms protesting about the rights of EU citizens following Brexit.

 

I must confess I don’t understand why it’s taking such a hold amongst the young.

[Rayvin 5176]

12 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I think the big bit you are not factoring in is that we have people living here today who survived the gas camps where 6 million of their kind were murdered. A lot of that started with the whispers, then name calling, then abuse etc.

 

Its understandable that that community more than most others is naturally very afraid with not only a surge in anti-semitism but also linked to a mainstream political movement in the way it currently is.

 

 

 

I would say Muslims are closer to that than Jews are in the current UK. We just had "Bash a Muslim day" or something like that from the far right.

 

The anti-semitic sentiment of the nazis becoming mainstream started with Germany being economically devastated by the way, and couldn't have happened without it - so in fairness to you, I guess with brexit looming there is a higher chance of a far right uprising gaining widespread public backing. It's not going to come from the left though. You know the nazis weren't left wing, right?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

The irony is that a lot of people partaking in anti-Semitic abuse were probably up in arms protesting about the rights of EU citizens following Brexit.

 

I must confess I don’t understand why it’s taking such a hold amongst the young.

 

I don't know if it has, I suspect we're talking about a few individuals at best. Does anyone have any actual evidence of ANYTHING to do with this?

[Dr Gloom 21811]

as morrisey pointed out so eloquently, hitler was left wing, so...

[Christmas Tree 4685]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I would say Muslims are closer to that than Jews are in the current UK.

 

That started with Germany being economically devastated by the way, and couldn't have happened without it - so in fairness to you, I guess with brexit looming there is a higher chance of a far right uprising gaining widespread public backing. It's not going to come from the left though. You know the nazis weren't left wing, right?

 

I don’t see any far right uprising taking hold here.

 

In my experience, far right racists are thick as fuck, far left racists are intelligent.

[Alex 34822]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

The irony is that a lot of people partaking in anti-Semitic abuse were probably up in arms protesting about the rights of EU citizens following Brexit.

 

I must confess I don’t understand why it’s taking such a hold amongst the young.

If there's a lot of them, you'll have no problem in naming a few and giving some examples that back up your claim.

[Christmas Tree 4685]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I don't know if it has, I suspect we're talking about a few individuals at best. Does anyone have any actual evidence of ANYTHING to do with this?

 

Watch the debate.

[Dr Gloom 21811]

why does the rise of antisemitic abuse have to result in physical violence before it's newsworthy, rayvin?

i've got a question: why was naz shah readmitted to the party? why hasn't ken livingstone been permanently expelled? if corbyn wanted to show he was serious about tackling the issue, he'd get rid of these two for starters. 

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

why does the rise of antisemitic abuse have to result in physical violence before it's newsworthy, rayvin?

i've got a question: why was naz shah readmitted to the party? why hasn't ken livingstone been permanently expelled? if corbyn wanted to show he was serious about tackling the issue, he'd get rid of these two for starters. 

 

I'm not saying it's not newsworthy. I'm saying that it's been a rolling headline for about 3 weeks which is making it comparable to the death of Jo Cox. And as far as I can see (until corrected, which I have asked for repeatedly), the issues being raised are Twitter threats - which I discount immediately on the grounds that Twitter is full of absolute charlatans on all sides of the political spectrum, and that far, far, far more violence is likely threatened by the right against black people, muslims, women and yes, even Jews.

 

I suspect Corbyn's view on the scale of the problem is not in line with the media's. He suspended both of those individuals immediately as I recall and a full investigation was carried out. So if we consider that the media's line on this is the correct one, then no he's not taking this seriously.

[Dr Gloom 21811]

shah was readmitted

Edited April 18, 2018 by Dr Gloom

[ewerk 30242]

45 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Nah, I shouldn't have gotten wound up there. Weird life circumstances atm.

 

Don't know if I agree on the coverage here. I mean we have rising knife crime in London and quite a lot of "on the ground" uproar about it - links to police cuts, failed Tory policies that are actually getting people killed. This is getting less attention than anti-semitism at the moment.

 

Can someone set out what the anti-semitic things to have happened are, as perhaps I'm missing something. To my knowledge we have:

 

1 - Twitter being full of keyboard warriors and threatening violence. I disregard this as it happens across the political spectrum to almost everyone in the public eye, and I can't imagine there's any way of knowing for sure that those involved are actually Labour members.

 

2 - A dead bird.

 

3 - A mural with questionable intent.

 

I suppose the bird is a health risk but other than that, what actual harm or serious potential harm has befallen anyone? Have the police been involved in any of these incidents? Have arrests been made?

The knife crime story was a big story for a week, every story has a shelf life. Stories about what are largely black issues tend to have a shorter expiry.

And as Gloom mentioned, there may not have yet been physical violence but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Anyone being abused and threatened because of their religion is entirely unacceptable. The reason this is dragging on is Labour's failure to deal with it comprehensively. The Chakrbarti report was issued two years ago and, under Corbyn's leadership, its recommendations for dealing with anti-semitism have still not been implemented.

And CT does have a bit of a point in that the hard left will always have an issue with anti-semitism as a lot of them do see a disproportionate number of Jews controlling the world's wealth. Something that was emphasised by the recent mural scandal which was created exclusively by Corbyn.

[Dr Gloom 21811]

Antisemitic incidents in UK at all-time high

Charity logs 1,382 hate incidents and 34% rise in violent assaults against Jewish people in 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/01/antisemitic-incidents-in-uk-at-all-time-high

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Antisemitic incidents in UK at all-time high

Charity logs 1,382 hate incidents and 34% rise in violent assaults against Jewish people in 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/01/antisemitic-incidents-in-uk-at-all-time-high

 

First off, thank you for actually delivering some evidence of something.

 

It would be interesting to know the source of these attacks. I suspect a lot of them come from the Islamic community (I base this anecdotally on my time living in Bradford where I was often verbally abused for being Jewish, not that I actually am). Does it break them down into demographics? Probably too polarising to do so I suppose but it would be interesting.

 

So anti-semitism is rising in general, the evidence for that looks plain. On that basis Corbyn should make a statement of intent irrespective of how bad things appear to be in his own party. But that said, is the increase in anti-semitism out of step with the increase in hate crimes in general? How do we know these aren't being perpetuated by the right?

 

Why aren't the police dealing with this?

[Dr Gloom 21811]

from the piece i linked to

A spokesperson for advocacy group Hope Not Hate said the levels of antisemitism remained unacceptably high and it was concerning to see that incidents had not declined.

Stephen Silverman, director of investigations and enforcement at the Campaign Against Antisemitism, said the trust figures were indicative of official 2017 police statistics. “Antisemitic crime has been rising dramatically since 2014 and that rise is not explained by an increase in reporting, and we have seen no noticeable impact from Brexit,” he said.

Silverman added: “We believe that Jews are being singled out disproportionately and with increasing violence due to the spread of antisemitic conspiracy myths originating from Islamists, the far-left and far-right, which society is failing to address, as evidenced by the ongoing disgraceful situation in the Labour party, and because the Crown Prosecution Service declines to prosecute so often that antisemites no longer fear any consequences to their actions.”

so it sounds like the rise of antisemitic abuse is coming from all ends of the spectrum: islamist nutters, the far left and the far right. this isn't something that is exclusively to some corbynites but that's not to say he shouldn't be doing more to address the issue in his own party. it's the labour party ffs. it has a proud tradition of fighting racism - as does corbyn. why does he feel he can't speak up about it? is it fear of pissing off the anti israel/free palestine/socialist worker wing? it's where a sizeable chunk of his support comes from after all.  

[Rayvin 5176]

12 minutes ago, ewerk said:

The knife crime story was a big story for a week, every story has a shelf life. Stories about what are largely black issues tend to have a shorter expiry.

And as Gloom mentioned, there may not have yet been physical violence but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Anyone being abused and threatened because of their religion is entirely unacceptable. The reason this is dragging on is Labour's failure to deal with it comprehensively. The Chakrbarti report was issued two years ago and, under Corbyn's leadership, its recommendations for dealing with anti-semitism have still not been implemented.

And CT does have a bit of a point in that the hard left will always have an issue with anti-semitism as a lot of them do see a disproportionate number of Jews controlling the world's wealth. Something that was emphasised by the recent mural scandal which was created exclusively by Corbyn.

 

Fair enough. People are abused and threatened because of their religion all the time on Twitter mind, I don't think that's the line we should be taking here. The hard left seem to have no more significant an issue with Jews as the hard right tbh, but I guess since everyone has decided Labour are now 'hard left', they are damned by association more than the Tories would be for far right issues.

 

I still think this is a storm in a teacup to distract from the Tories generally fucking up everything at the moment, but I'm prepared to accept that Corbyn is bringing much of this on himself by simply not playing the game with the media here and making a 'show' of dealing with the issue.

[ewerk 30242]

Or maybe, just maybe he could actually deal with the problem?

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

from the piece i linked to

 

 

 

I don't know if that constitutes evidence of cause though, nor does it determine which of those three groups is the most prevalent actor. I mean I agree that it will be a mixture of the three.

 

Generally agree on the rest of your point.

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, ewerk said:

Or maybe, just maybe he could actually deal with the problem?

 

I wrote that the way I did because I don't believe for one second that anyone currently talking about this in the press or at the political level, actually considers the resolution to this problem to be the primary reason for talking about it.

[ewerk 30242]

I think that's a very cynical view to take. Some will be using it for political ends but plenty genuinely believe that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not entirely sure that Corbyn does though.

[Dr Gloom 21811]

it's a big problem in france too 

 

Paris murder of woman, 85, investigated as 'anti-Semitic'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43544721

Girl’s face cut near Paris in suspected anti-Semitic assault

https://www.timesofisrael.com/girls-face-cut-near-paris-in-suspected-anti-semitic-assault/

 

Emmanuel Macron urges France to 'rise up' against anti-Semitic attacks

https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-urges-france-to-rise-up-against-anti-semitic-attacks-11230476

[Rayvin 5176]

8 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I think that's a very cynical view to take. Some will be using it for political ends but plenty genuinely believe that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not entirely sure that Corbyn does though.

 

After the years of constant nonsense that's been thrown at Corbyn to take him out, I'm as cynical as I need to be. If the press and politicians have an issue with it I'm tempted to say that if they hadn't cried wolf baselessly the other several thousand times Corbyn had allegedly turned traitor, supported terrorists, wanted to turn the UK into Venezuela, etc I would have far more patience with them now. If CT wants to know why many young people aren't paying enough attention to this, it's because Corbyn has actually started to become immune to this media shitstorm because we've had so many, and the vast, vast majority have been patent nonsense.

 

As for your last point, I would go further. I don't think Corbyn does see it as a problem that needs to be addressed. I suspect his view on it is that it's a trumped up media outrage by his enemies. While this is similar to my view, I have the luxury of being able to believe that without any consequences if I am wrong. He does not, and should seriously review the evidence and make the findings of any investigation clear.

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Rayvin

[Alex 34822]

They certainly don't help themselves by sitting on stories for years and releasing them at 'opportune moments' as with the mural nonsense

[Rayvin 5176]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

They certainly don't help themselves by sitting on stories for years and releasing them at 'opportune moments' as with the mural nonsense

 

I was tempted to mention this actually, given that Berger seems to be a driving force behind this. If she cared so much about the issue, why has she waited until now to kick this off? Probably because she cares more about getting rid of Corbyn than she does about anti-semitism. Or am I just being too cynical again?