Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, NJS said: I'd add Renton that despite thinking Brexit is the stupidest thing this country has ever done, its almost a sailed ship - all anyone can do is try and make the best of it. Basing an entire thing on reversing it is pretty much a waste of time in the short/medium term. I accept Brexit, I think it's best for the UK and EU that we leave now. However, Corbyn should be campaigning for EEA/EFTA. He won't because he is and always has been a committed eurosceptic. He is at odds with virtually the entire PLP and most the membership and potential electorate on this. Labour would do much better without him. That's why I want every Labour anti-Brexiter to vote against him in protest this May. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4378 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 If you think they'd do better without him, how do you explain the unexpectedly good GE results? A heinous tory government isn't the entire reason as 2015 showed. I wouldn't mind a new leader but not at the cost of a return to centrist policies as I think there is appetite (especially among the young) for something more decent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Being up against the worst Tory election campaign in recent times did him no harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 minute ago, NJS said: If you think they'd do better without him, how do you explain the unexpectedly good GE results? A heinous tory government isn't the entire reason as 2015 showed. I wouldn't mind a new leader but not at the cost of a return to centrist policies as I think there is appetite (especially among the young) for something more decent. The results were much better than expected but he still lost against the worst government in history. I'm increasingly thinking the whole system is fucked anyway, FPTP isn't fit for purpose, but neither party is incentivised to change it. And the lib dems are a wasted vote. It just feels like we are doomed to follow a trajectory which is closer to US model rather than the Nordic one I want whatever happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Why is the centre such a shameful place to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4378 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 26 minutes ago, ewerk said: Why is the centre such a shameful place to be? From my pov it leads to governments in the Major/Blair mould - a hint of decency but nothing bold to address real change on fundamental issues like housing/public ownership/taxation as they don't want to upset what they perceive as their chances of extending power. Whether it was misplaced loyalty or anti-tory resentment, I think the fact that 40% voted for a moderately left wing manifesto shows that the view that only a centrist platform can beat the tories is wrong - I think Blair could have done a lot more in 97 if he'd wanted to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, ewerk said: Why is the centre such a shameful place to be? It's proven itself to be arm-in-arm with Corporatism and Consumerism which are among the greatest poisons known to the West. Does it have to be, is this just the best we can do? I don't know, but in its current guise it's fucking awful for the poor. I'm willing to roll the dice, but I'm probably fine either way. At least until the proles throw me off a cliff for being part of the problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 See from my perception is say Europe, whilst not being perfect, is probably the best place on the planet at maximising well-being for its citizens. This through largely centrist politics. I think this has been proven through OECD research, particularly the Scandinavian countries who have high levels of well-being despite being sun deprived and bollock freezing. It's shit being poor, anywhere. But being poor in the US, an ostensibly richer country than most in the EU, is much worse than being a meth from even Pennywell. For me, centrist policies are pragmatic and importantly work. Problem is that's not what we have got now. We have an ideological far right government intent on destroying public services. And Corbyn is completely ineffective at opposing this. Shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I don't think you can just hold up the best examples of Centrism, rather look at it as a whole. Those countries have a far stronger safety net and are about as left as Centrism gets. They're also riding on the coattails of the war-mongering countries. What is the metric the OECD is measuring this happiness against? Ireland has a pretty strong safety net, yet the poorest (anecdotally at least) are very unhappy. They have no hope or aspirations. Maybe it's the middle-classes that are raising the happiness quotient? The people who are so happy that they vote to chuck out foreigners and fuck over the poor. Why are we moving to the wings in many western countries if people are so happy? It seems (to me) that as long as the corporations are served first and people aspire to empty promises, there will not be true happiness. I'm also willing to accept that this is just par for the course with government incompetence, but you've almost made my own point for me in shining a light on the most left-wing examples of Centrism in Europe. Defo up for an argument today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, Renton said: It's shit being poor, anywhere. Why does it have to be? And again, in those Scandinavian countries, it really doesn't seem to be. Couldn't agree with you more about the US vs Europe btw. Were Clinton (Bill) and Obama not centrists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, adios said: I don't think you can just hold up the best examples of Centrism, rather look at it as a whole. Those countries have a far stronger safety net and are about as left as Centrism gets. They're also riding on the coattails of the war-mongering countries. What is the metric the OECD is measuring this happiness against? Ireland has a pretty strong safety net, yet the poorest (anecdotally at least) are very unhappy. They have no hope or aspirations. Maybe it's the middle-classes that are raising the happiness quotient? The people who are so happy that they vote to chuck out foreigners and fuck over the poor. Why are we moving to the wings in many western countries if people are so happy? It seems (to me) that as long as the corporations are served first and people aspire to empty promises, there will not be true happiness. I'm also willing to accept that this is just par for the course with government incompetence, but you've almost made my own point for me in shining a light on the most left-wing examples of Centrism in Europe. Defo up for an argument today. The OECD use the life satisfaction index. Currently Norway, Denmark, and Finland are in the top five. Canada is just outside the top five. Counterintuitively, I can only conclude that happiness is inversely proportional to sunlight. Let's not get hung up on political definitions though. It's clear that countries with high taxation and good public services make their citizens happy. Corbyn might want this, but he is a barrier to its implementation imo. Edited April 9, 2018 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21912 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Mrs Gloom fancies moving to Norway. I love the sound of lots of it, but fuck moving somewhere even colder, wetter and darker than the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Well, obviously the OECD measures us against ourselves (which is ultimately what you're saying). And those countries cited are very left-leaning. Centrism has done great things for us (to a point) and maybe now it's time for us to take the next logical step. It's also taken us to the brink of extinction. We have things like AGILE (which has many positive qualities) showing us what businesses really want. And it's all short-termist Consumerism with as little quality as can be gotten away with. It's all about image, an image that can't ever be true/attainable as things stand. I don't want to get bogged down in labels either, because it's easy to mix up Centrism and mixed economies for example, but it's fair to say that in many western countries, the separation of Corporation and State is now more important than Church and State every was. It's quite clearly at odds with the needs of the average person, which is what government is supposed to be looking out for. I guess we really need to get into the nitty-gritty of policy if we're to avoid labels and we'll agree on many of the principles (that Corbyn embodies more than parliamentary Labour, is it fair to say?). What is it that you think stands between his goals and the reality? The poor are not being looked after in the West, and that's going to be almost all of us in 20 years. I'd be very worried if I had kids. And maybe the Scandinavians/Finns are educated enough to take Vitamin D supplements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: Mrs Gloom fancies moving to Norway. I love the sound of lots of it, but fuck moving somewhere even colder, wetter and darker than the UK. Very few places have a sense of humour like us either, which makes your options very limited unless you want to live with a bunch of humourless fucks. But I guess you already live in London. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: Mrs Gloom fancies moving to Norway. I love the sound of lots of it, but fuck moving somewhere even colder, wetter and darker than the UK. Had a mate who lived in Trondheim for a bit but couldn't hack the beer prices. Just checked and on average now it is 6 quid a pint. Not much difference to Tynemouth tbf. Edited April 9, 2018 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, adios said: What is it that you think stands between his goals and the reality? Electability. I also think leaving the EU is a huge mistake (in case you hadn't realised ) . It's such an important issue to me I will always struggle to vote for him. I agree with your post btw, no arguments from me today! Edited April 9, 2018 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Renton said: no arguments from me today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) You'll have to pay. Edited April 9, 2018 by Renton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 This isn't an argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Well I've fucked that up. People should appreciate the huge lengths I go to on here using a phone with fucking "E" reception! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 It was there a minute ago too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35064 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I saw it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21592 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 FFS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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