Politics

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

What is the standard procedure? We know it was devised by the Russians because their scientists revealed the formula for it to us after the fall of the USSR.

 

It sounds like the standard procedure is to present evidence to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Something we apparently signed up to. Why aren't we doing that? Presumably, just so the Tories can look strong. This is a farce being played out for political points. It's well conceived on that basis, but I have no fucking time for it personally. We can't do anything to Russia of any significance, and in a few weeks it'll all be forgotten about unless the Tories actually declare war.

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

We apparently have the power to do it but haven't done so. Labour have backed the Magnitsky amendment but I don't think it has yet become law. When the USA passed their version of it Putin was well fucked off.

 

Well, fair enough. I expect that to be the first thing on May's list then, given how 'outrageous' this is.

[ewerk 30569]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

It sounds like the standard procedure is to present evidence to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Something we apparently signed up to. Why aren't we doing that? Presumably, just so the Tories can look strong. This is a farce being played out for political points. It's well conceived on that basis, but I have no fucking time for it personally. We can't do anything to Russia of any significance, and in a few weeks it'll all be forgotten about unless the Tories actually declare war.

We are passing it to an international body AFAIA.

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

We are passing it to an international body AFAIA.

 

So why expel their diplomats beforehand?

[ewerk 30569]

Because we know it's them.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13861]

The problem is, they hate us coz they ain't us. Isn't that right, CT?

[Dr Gloom 21912]

Putin knew exactly what he was doing, using this nerve agent. It was always going to be traced back to Russia, so it's an entirely political play by him too: he gets to act like a strongman nationalist leader, presenting Russia as the victim amid the inevitable UK backlash. And how convenient, in the week of the Russian election.

He's also managed to scare the shit out of any would be dissident into thinking twice about crossing him - a gruesome death awaits you and your family if you fuck with Daddy Vladdy.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5217]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Because we know it's them.

 

So fucking what? We signed up to international agreements for the regulation of this sort of thing. How is it that these agreements are things we can ignore, but for other countries we expect them to comply? We sign up to these things to protect an admittedly largely illusory notion of international accountability. Especially when we know the US is effectively being run by a guy bought and paid for by the guy who has allegedly just attacked us, and the EU is pissed as hell at us, you would think complying with legally agreed frameworks would be advantageous.

 

Where do you think this will end up, out of interest? My guess is it rumbles on for a while as the list of non-damaging diplomatic actions is exhausted, and then gets forgotten - and the Tories have jumped the gun purely because actually, they don't consider it to be a very big a deal... and they may as well make some political capital out of it.

[Rayvin 5217]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

Putin knew exactly what he was doing, using this nerve agent. It was always going to be traced back to Russia, so it's an entirely political play by him too: he gets to act like a strongman nationalist leader, presenting Russia as the victim amid the inevitable UK backlash. And how convenient, in the week of the Russian election.

He's also managed to scare the shit out of any would be dissident into thinking twice about crossing him - a gruesome death awaits you and your family if you fuck with Daddy Vladdy.

 

How does this help him in his already bought and paid for domestic election?

[ewerk 30569]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So fucking what? We signed up to international agreements for the regulation of this sort of thing. How is it that these agreements are things we can ignore, but for other countries we expect them to comply? We sign up to these things to protect an admittedly largely illusory notion of international accountability. Especially when we know the US is effectively being run by a guy bought and paid for by the guy who has allegedly just attacked us, and the EU is pissed as hell at us, you would think complying with legally agreed frameworks would be advantageous.

 

Where do you think this will end up, out of interest? My guess is it rumbles on for a while as the list of non-damaging diplomatic actions is exhausted, and then gets forgotten - and the Tories have jumped the gun purely because actually, they don't consider it to be a very big a deal... and they may as well make some political capital out of it.

What agreements have we flouted?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So fucking what? We signed up to international agreements for the regulation of this sort of thing. How is it that these agreements are things we can ignore, but for other countries we expect them to comply? We sign up to these things to protect an admittedly largely illusory notion of international accountability. Especially when we know the US is effectively being run by a guy bought and paid for by the guy who has allegedly just attacked us, and the EU is pissed as hell at us, you would think complying with legally agreed frameworks would be advantageous.

 

Where do you think this will end up, out of interest? My guess is it rumbles on for a while as the list of non-damaging diplomatic actions is exhausted, and then gets forgotten - and the Tories have jumped the gun purely because actually, they don't consider it to be a very big a deal... and they may as well make some political capital out of it.

 

We are not ignoring them. We have sent samples to the relevant world authority.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

How does this help him in his already bought and paid for domestic election?

it's about consolidating his position. he's already spending millions on getting remote voters in places like siberia to the ballot box. the election result is a foregone conclusion (his only realistic challenger is banned from running) but he's desperate to boost turnout and his own share of the vote, legitimising his presidency. a move like this enhances his strongman, nationalist leadership that appeals to so many russian dickheads. 

[Rayvin 5217]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

What agreements have we flouted?

 

The Chemical Weapons Convention, apparently. We are supposed to send the sample to the OPCW.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

@Rayvin

 

We have also notified the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons about Russia’s use of this nerve agent. And we are working with the police to enable the OPCW to independently verify our analysis.

 

Maybe you should read the rest of the PM’s statement first.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-russia-statement-in-full-spies-expel-nerve-agent-salisbury-poisoning-a8255661.html%3famp

 

Corbyn was complaining that we hadn’t sent samples to Russia

[Rayvin 5217]

6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

We are not ignoring them. We have sent samples to the relevant world authority.

 

If states-parties are found to have engaged in prohibited actions that could result in “serious damage” to the convention, the OPCW could recommend collective punitive measures to other states-parties. In cases of “particular gravity,” the OPCW could bring the issue before the UN Security Council and General Assembly.

States-parties must take measures to address questions raised about their compliance with the CWC. If they do not, the OPCW may, inter alia, restrict or suspend their CWC-related rights and privileges (such as voting and trade rights).

 

Notice how the international body is supposed to be the one that handles this. So again, why have we jumped the gun?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

If states-parties are found to have engaged in prohibited actions that could result in “serious damage” to the convention, the OPCW could recommend collective punitive measures to other states-parties. In cases of “particular gravity,” the OPCW could bring the issue before the UN Security Council and General Assembly.

States-parties must take measures to address questions raised about their compliance with the CWC. If they do not, the OPCW may, inter alia, restrict or suspend their CWC-related rights and privileges (such as voting and trade rights).

 

Notice how the international body is supposed to be the one that handles this. So again, why have we jumped the gun?

 

 just stop typing til you’ve caught up with today’s events.

[Rayvin 5217]

2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

@Rayvin

 

We have also notified the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons about Russia’s use of this nerve agent. And we are working with the police to enable the OPCW to independently verify our analysis.

 

Maybe you should read the rest of the PM’s statement first.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-russia-statement-in-full-spies-expel-nerve-agent-salisbury-poisoning-a8255661.html%3famp

 

Corbyn was complaining that we hadn’t sent samples to Russia

 

Corbyn said this:

 

He said: “If the government believes that it is still a possibility that Russianegligently lost control of a military-grade nerve agent, what action is being taken through the OPCW with our allies?”

Corbyn then asked: “How has she responded to the Russian government’s request for a sample of the agent used in the Salisbury attack, to run its own tests?”

 

" "

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Corbyn said this:

 

He said: “If the government believes that it is still a possibility that Russianegligently lost control of a military-grade nerve agent, what action is being taken through the OPCW with our allies?”

Corbyn then asked: “How has she responded to the Russian government’s request for a sample of the agent used in the Salisbury attack, to run its own tests?”

 

" "

 

Shed already told him the OPCW were being involved an hour earlier, in writing.

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

 just stop typing til you’ve caught up with today’s events.

 

Ah ok - have I missed the bit where the relevant international body has received the samples, considered the evidence, drawn it's conclusions, and has presented its findings to the UN? Because if I have missed that, then fair enough.

[Rayvin 5217]

2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Shed already told him the OPCW were being involved an hour earlier, in writing.

 

Ok, great. So presumably she told him this in response, and everyone just kinda wondered why he bothered asking when he already knew. Or the other scenario, everyone lost their shit because a man suggested we comply with our international obligations.

 

Presumably he had some reason to ask her again, but whether it was a good one or not, it's hardly "shameful" or whatever he's being accused of. Hardly "pro-Russia" either. "Pro-international law" maybe.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ah ok - have I missed the bit where the relevant international body has received the samples, considered the evidence, drawn it's conclusions, and has presented its findings to the UN? Because if I have missed that, then fair enough.

 

Jesus, our own scientists have established the source and are now getting the relevant body to independently verify our findings. We are presenting our findings to the UN tonight.

 

Your defence of Corbyn is clouding a pretty straight forward chain of events.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ok, great. So presumably she told him this in response, and everyone just kinda wondered why he bothered asking when he already knew. 

 

She sent him a copy of her statement an hour before she said it to him in person. All before he raised it.

[Rayvin 5217]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Jesus, our own scientists have established the source and are now getting the relevant body to independently verify our findings. We are presenting our findings to the UN tonight.

 

Your defence of Corbyn is clouding a pretty straight forward chain of events.

 

In terms of politics, Corbyn is an utter fuckwit who is generally a PR nightmare, and doesn't appear to have a solid grasp of swift decision making outside of his key principles, and cannot command respect throughout his party.

 

Now that we've established what I think about Corbyn as a politician, I can say with cards on the table that I don't see what it is that he has done wrong here.

[ewerk 30569]

 

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

She sent him a copy of her statement an hour before she said it to him in person. All before he raised it.

 

Yes, I understood that the first time you said it.