Politics

[ewerk 30238]

 

 

 

 

'Opposition'.

[ewerk 30238]

On 11/23/2017 at 9:19 AM, Rayvin said:

 

The media wouldn't run with him on it though, he seems to get very few favours from them. He needs something the media go beserk over first, I would argue. When something directly affects the public in a way that can be seen and measured easily, and the public lose their shit, that's when he needs to capitalise. He really is only going to get one shot at this, and Hammond's budget doesn't strike me as the moment.

 

If the moment never comes, we'll just Brexit, I guess. But I don't think he can create the storm for this, it needs to come from the public if any manner of credible u-turn on Brexit can be achieved.

 

Right, Titty McFuckwit. Surely yesterday's farce would be the time to launch a campaign to remain in the SM/CU by using the excuse that he's maintaining the integrity of the union. Instead he/Milne has instructed his party spokespeople to say absolutely nothing. That's not leadership.

[Renton 21269]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Right, Titty McFuckwit. Surely yesterday's farce would be the time to launch a campaign to remain in the SM/CU by using the excuse that he's maintaining the integrity of the union. Instead he/Milne has instructed his party spokespeople to say absolutely nothing. That's not leadership.

 

It's tragic we have ended up with such pathetic opposition at such a crucial juncture in our history. You couldn't write the script for this shit. 

[Rayvin 5175]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Right, Titty McFuckwit. Surely yesterday's farce would be the time to launch a campaign to remain in the SM/CU by using the excuse that he's maintaining the integrity of the union. Instead he/Milne has instructed his party spokespeople to say absolutely nothing. That's not leadership.

 

Still disagree, there's a better moment around the corner IMO.

 

I mean look, I've already said it could just be weak leadership - I conceded the possibility of that quite readily around the same time as the post you're quoting. Having said that, what happened yesterday wasn't "Brexit falling apart". If May genuinely gets herself into a position where she's ousted from Number 10, then I think they should turn the guns on Brexit itself. But if they had come along yesterday (and Corbyn did make a statement yesterday, not that the press really cared) and gotten fully involved, they would have been asked the following question:

 

What would you do differently to resolve the Irish border issue then?

 

The only possible answer to that is "stay in the single market". Too early for that to come out, IMO.

[Rayvin 5175]

They'd also immediately polarise people into Leave and Remain camps again, and I'm really not sure that enough Leavers have swung to Remain, for that to work in our favour.

[ewerk 30238]

Absolute bollocks. We have the leaders of Scotland, Wales and London calling to remain in the SM/CU. Now is the time to strike. 

 

The false promises on Brexit are unraveling and now is the time for a real opposition to step forward and present an alternative path. I read Corbyn's response on Twitter yesterday and it offered nothing. There's a media blackout from the Tory leadership today and that should be filled by Labour being on every TV and radio show pushing their plan for a soft Brexit.

[Renton 21269]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

They'd also immediately polarise people into Leave and Remain camps again, and I'm really not sure that enough Leavers have swung to Remain, for that to work in our favour.

There's good evidence most people from both camps would settle for EEA access. It's already heavily implied in labour's manifesto, and is probably the only solution to NI. When are Labour going to start campaigning? April 1st 2019?

Edited December 5, 2017 by Renton

[Rayvin 5175]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Absolute bollocks. We have the leaders of Scotland, Wales and London calling to remain in the SM/CU. Now is the time to strike. 

 

The false promises on Brexit are unraveling and now is the time for a real opposition to step forward and present an alternative path. I read Corbyn's response on Twitter yesterday and it offered nothing. There's a media blackout from the Tory leadership today and that should be filled by Labour being on every TV and radio show pushing their plan for a soft Brexit.

 

The leaders of Scotland, Wales and London were calling to remain in the SM/CU to embarrass the PM. It's not the watershed moment and you know it. If the PM forces it through, then these threats actually have weight, then we have the time to strike. As it stands, Corbyn could throw the kitchen sink at her here, only for today's discussions with the DUP to somehow resolve the situation and the whole effort to be wasted.

[Rayvin 5175]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

There's good evidence most people from both camps would settle for EEA access. It's already heavily implied in labour's manifesto, and is probably 5he only solution to NI. When ate Labour going to start campaigning? April 1st 2019?

 

There's good evidence to suggest that Labour have weak leadership. I'm not denying this.

 

All I'm saying is that personally, if it were me, I still wouldn't have showed my hand. Things can still get worse for the Tories, unless you think they're on the cusp of turning the whole thing around.

[ewerk 30238]

It wouldn't be wasted. As I said, he could paint it as defending the union. People will be looking at Northern Ireland's great deal and wondering why they can't get it. It would add some much needed debate to the process because at the moment we are doing this wholly on Tory hard brexit terms.

[Christmas Tree 4685]

I must agree that now is the moment that Labour should be throwing Brexit under the bus. Sure a lot of labour voters are brexiteers, but come an election I think most of those would fall in line behind the magic money tree.

 

Opportunity missed.

[ewerk 30238]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Things can still get worse for the Tories, unless you think they're on the cusp of turning the whole thing around.

 

At the moment they're as weak as they ever have been. If May turns this around in the next few days then it looks like a victory and we're proceeding to trade talks. Now is the moment to strike.

[Rayvin 5175]

So he comes out and says that, and then May turns around and claims she has found a way to make it all work - so she then looks like actually, she does have answers. Corbyn is treated with suspicion by Leavers because it looks like he was making a play to reverse Brexit, whereas May has them firmly back on side again.

 

The alternative option being he waits for her to fail to sort this out in any significant way, and when certain that this is the case, goes in with the line you're suggesting it.

 

I just think it's still premature at this point, we don't know how things will look in a day or so.

[Renton 21269]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

There's good evidence to suggest that Labour have weak leadership. I'm not denying this.

 

All I'm saying is that personally, if it were me, I still wouldn't have showed my hand. Things can still get worse for the Tories, unless you think they're on the cusp of turning the whole thing around.

Odd. You're the one who always talks about building narratives. Well, narrative writing takes time 

 

I think Corbyn is a eurosceptic coward personally.

[Rayvin 5175]

2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

I must agree that now is the moment that Labour should be throwing Brexit under the bus. Sure a lot of labour voters are brexiteers, but come an election I think most of those would fall in line behind the magic money tree.

 

Opportunity missed.

 

If you ever needed more proof that I was right, here it is.

[Rayvin 5175]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

At the moment they're as weak as they ever have been. If May turns this around in the next few days then it looks like a victory and we're proceeding to trade talks. Now is the moment to strike.

 

Disagree. The victory for May is turning it around and exposing Corbyn as a traitor to Brexit. She could bait him in here and come out with a much bigger victory if she turns it around.

[Renton 21269]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

If you ever needed more proof that I was right, here it is.

I don't think that wumming idiot proves anything. 

[Rayvin 5175]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

Odd. You're the one who always talks about building narratives. Well, narrative writing takes time 

 

I think Corbyn is a eurosceptic coward personally.

 

Building narratives does take time but you need to think about which narrative needs to be built here. Labour have a narrative for themselves, and they're fairly comfortable in it. The Brexit narrative is the one that is being built, and I actually don't think it needs much interference from Labour to develop into a nightmare. It's doing that before our eyes anyway. Everything that has happened in the last few days is building the narrative on Brexit.

[Alex 34821]

6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

I must agree that now is the moment that Labour should be throwing Brexit under the bus. Sure a lot of labour voters are brexiteers, but come an election I think most of those would fall in line behind the magic money tree.

 

Opportunity missed.

Nice try, fatty

[Renton 21269]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Disagree. The victory for May is turning it around and exposing Corbyn as a traitor to Brexit. She could bait him in here and come out with a much bigger victory if she turns it around.

How can she turn it around? Her red lines have painted her into a corner she can't escape from. A competent opposition would destroy her and her party. 

[Rayvin 5175]

So look - If May comes out and somehow resolves this problem she's created for herself, then Labour were right to sit back IMO. Getting involved and having the Tories come out with a win will expose them.

 

If Labour sit back, watch to see if she can pull it together, and she fails... then I think they should go in all guns blazing. And then I'll agree with you that they're not helping anyone if they don't.

[ewerk 30238]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Building narratives does take time but you need to think about which narrative needs to be built here. Labour have a narrative for themselves, and they're fairly comfortable in it. The Brexit narrative is the one that is being built, and I actually don't think it needs much interference from Labour to develop into a nightmare. It's doing that before our eyes anyway. Everything that has happened in the last few days is building the narrative on Brexit.

 

You're a natural procrastinator.

[Rayvin 5175]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

You're a natural procrastinator.

 

I don't believe in rushing in, and I enjoy strategy. I just don't think Labour, or any of us, have very much to lose here by just letting the Tories continue to hang themselves. UNLESS the concern at the back is that they might somehow come out with something looking like a successful deal.

[ewerk 30238]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

So look - If May comes out and somehow resolves this problem she's created for herself, then Labour were right to sit back IMO.

 

If May comes out with a win then the debate is over. NI is staying in the SM/CU and the rest of you are headed for a hard Brexit.

[Rayvin 5175]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

If May comes out with a win then the debate is over. NI is staying in the SM/CU and the rest of you are headed for a hard Brexit.

 

If she does that, then the threats from Scotland, Wales, London all look rather more serious. I actually think Labour could take her on over that position. The Leavers would hate it as much as the Remainers.