Politics

[Rayvin 5175]

10 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I'm sure it'll have changed again during the ten years it's going to take you to contemplate the direction of your life.

 

 QF fucking T.

[Renton 21269]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

 QF fucking T.

Don't you already own a property and this is for FTBs? 

[Rayvin 5175]

Just now, Renton said:

Don't you already own a property and this is for FTBs? 

 

No I don't, I'm a FTB. Had two false starts in the past year and... well everything else is complicated by the fact that I've started jettisoning various parts of my life now anyway. I'm probably just going to buy a flat and have done with it.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13792]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

Budget:

 

Brand new set of trains for the Metro system.

 

Can they get a brand new set of managing directors because the current lot have ploughed it right into the shit?

[Dr Gloom 21809]

not a bad budget, given the absolutely dire downgrades to growth forecasts and productivity. he's actually spending some real cash to try to address the productivity puzzle. whether the OBR will be convinced is another matter but we're talking about more capital investments in infrastructure/science etc for over a decade. 

 

the real story though is the absolutely shocking growth picture for the next decade or so. grim reading, and zero leeway if brexit hits the economy as hard as feared. 

[Dr Gloom 21809]

 

[ewerk 30238]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

Holy fuck, the stamp duty thing though... a policy that will actually help me.

 

Damn.

 

Or will it?

 

[Rayvin 5175]

Yeah I saw that too. Don't worry, already over it.

[Dr Gloom 21809]

 

[Meenzer 15391]

Well duh, that's the whole point of the Tories.

[ewerk 30238]

On 12/11/2017 at 10:11 AM, Rayvin said:

Me too but I don't know what you expect Labour to do. The tide needs to turn on Brexit outside of party politics. That will happen, I'm sure, but Labour are only going to get one chance to say "ok this changes things, let's have a second referendum". They need to choose the moment well.

 

I mean, what would you have them do that you think would actually work?

 

Well we had confirmation yesterday that our economy is fucked for the next few years and I don’t think Corbyn once mentioned Brexit as the cause even though it obviously is.

[Rayvin 5175]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

 

Well we had confirmation yesterday that our economy is fucked for the next few years and I don’t think Corbyn once mentioned Brexit as the cause even though it obviously is.

 

There doesn't seem to be a significant media outcry about it. Don't think this is the moment.

[ewerk 30238]

So create a fucking outcry. Corbyn's response to the budget was guaranteed to be shown on every news programme broadcast last night. It was his opportunity to link Brexit to the country's failing economy in the head of every viewer and listener.

[Rayvin 5175]

7 minutes ago, ewerk said:

So create a fucking outcry. Corbyn's response to the budget was guaranteed to be shown on every news programme broadcast last night. It was his opportunity to link Brexit to the country's failing economy in the head of every viewer and listener.

 

The media wouldn't run with him on it though, he seems to get very few favours from them. He needs something the media go beserk over first, I would argue. When something directly affects the public in a way that can be seen and measured easily, and the public lose their shit, that's when he needs to capitalise. He really is only going to get one shot at this, and Hammond's budget doesn't strike me as the moment.

 

If the moment never comes, we'll just Brexit, I guess. But I don't think he can create the storm for this, it needs to come from the public if any manner of credible u-turn on Brexit can be achieved.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Rayvin

[ewerk 30238]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

The media wouldn't run with him on it though, he seems to get very few favours from them. He needs something the media go beserk over first, I would argue. When something directly affects the public in a way that can be seen and measured easily, and the public lose their shit, that's when he needs to capitalise. He really is only going to get one shot at this, and Hammond's budget really doesn't strike me as the moment.

 

If the moment never comes, we'll just Brexit, I guess. But I don't think he can create the storm for this, it needs to come from the public if any manner of credible u-turn on Brexit can be achieved.

 

I expect leaders to lead. Not wait to react to what others are saying. I'm not suggesting that he should have called for a second referendum yesterday, just that it was a chance to blame the falling predictions and living conditions on Brexit. It was very much a missed opportunity from a coward who secretly wants Brexit to happen.

[Rayvin 5175]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

I expect leaders to lead. Not wait to react to what others are saying. I'm not suggesting that he should have called for a second referendum yesterday, just that it was a chance to blame the falling predictions and living conditions on Brexit. It was very much a missed opportunity from a coward who secretly wants Brexit to happen.

 

Quite possibly. I don't have all the answers on this, I'm just saying I wouldn't personally have chosen the budget as something to kick up over beyond pointing out the hypocrisy of the Tories borrowing £90bn from what I can only assume is a magic money tree.

[ewerk 30238]

Well then you'd be a shite Labour leader too.

[Rayvin 5175]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

Well then you'd be a shite Labour leader too.

 

I'm more into strategy than leadership tbh. I'm also not hugely interested in partisan party politics, I just want the wider geopolitical outcome that prevents the collapse of Western civilisation

[ewerk 30238]

Well you're going the wrong way about it, son.

[Rayvin 5175]

I dunno, you seem to think that Corbyn should harness what is basically an anti-establishment backlash by trying to derail it before the public is ready to do so. I think he has his own anti-establishment credentials which he has some traction with, but which need to run alongside Brexit unless an opportunity to recast the latter as an establishment play becomes available. He doesn't have the credibility with the disaffected to take on Brexit head on IMO. The people need to turn against it on their own first.

[Renton 21269]

19 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

I expect leaders to lead. Not wait to react to what others are saying. I'm not suggesting that he should have called for a second referendum yesterday, just that it was a chance to blame the falling predictions and living conditions on Brexit. It was very much a missed opportunity from a coward who secretly wants Brexit to happen.

 

Spot on, and he's not even that secretive. Corbyn is pathetic in opposition. The Tories are creeping ahead in the opinion polls once again, which, when you consider the utter shambles of their governance and the dire consequences of their economic policies, points to an utterly pitiful performance from Corbyn. At a time when we need meaningful opposition the most, we have none. 

[Dr Gloom 21809]

i have some sympathy with him. corbyn wants to govern. and he doesn't want to turn all those voters who returned from ukip.

 

the problem is brexit is the biggest issue of the day. it doesn't matter who is governing. i liked some of the industrial strategy investment announcements in the budget yesterday. but it's pissing in the wind if we get brexit wrong. same goes for labour's spending plans. 

[Renton 21269]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i have some sympathy with him. corbyn wants to govern. and he doesn't want to turn all those voters who returned from ukip.

 

the problem is brexit is the biggest issue of the day. it doesn't matter who is governing. i liked some of the industrial strategy investment announcements in the budget yesterday. but it's pissing in the wind if we get brexit wrong. same goes for labour's spending plans. 

Does he want to govern? Iirc he didn't seem sure when directly asked. He seems comfortable in unelectable opposition to my mind.

 

The large majority of voters are either against Brexit or ambivalent. FFS, a decent leader would have been able to mobilise by now and be exerting huge pressure on May to at least compromise on a soft Brexit. Corbyn's silence says it all with regard to his real motives and weakness imo.

 

What a fucking mess  

[ewerk 30238]

12 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i have some sympathy with him. corbyn wants to govern. and he doesn't want to turn all those voters who returned from ukip.

 

the problem is brexit is the biggest issue of the day. it doesn't matter who is governing. i liked some of the industrial strategy investment announcements in the budget yesterday. but it's pissing in the wind if we get brexit wrong. same goes for labour's spending plans. 

 

What says 'I can govern' more than forcing the government into another referendum? All he'd need to do it get a handful of Tories to rebel and he could do it. The Tories would lose as many voters to UKIP as Labour would.

[Rayvin 5175]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

Does he want to govern? Iirc he didn't seem sure when directly asked. He seems comfortable in unelectable opposition to my mind.

 

The large majority of voters are either against Brexit or ambivalent. FFS, a decent leader would have been able to mobilise by now and be exerting huge pressure on May to at least compromise on a soft Brexit. Corbyn's silence says it all with regard to his real motives and weakness imo.

 

What a fucking mess  

 

I just don't see this. No one in politics, currently, has the ability or credibility to come out and oppose Brexit successfully. The public needs to turn against it first. Labour could come out and oppose it on principle, which is what you seem to want, but it would be irrelevant because 1 - they would never get into power on that basis and 2 - not getting into power would prevent them from actually being able to do anything useful about it anyway.