Politics

[Renton 22378]

I'm struggling to follow your line of thought to me being a hypocrite.

 

I want the government to provide a police force that enforces laws for the common good. I don't go vigilante and start making citizens arrests in some ill-founded notion that I have to practice what I preach and have to contribute if I'm going to advocate.

It's quite simple. You want the government to enact unelectable policies to absolve yourself of personal responsibility.

 

People are happy to have a police force because the societal good that does is tangible. Nobody is ever going to vote in a government who makes foreign holidays unattainable though. But your attitude seems to be that if the government doesn't bring about such a law, you won't exercise your personal beliefs in the planet's welfare.

[Renton 22378]

T5 is alright when it works. Still get those ludicrous holding pattern delays more often than not. But yeah, some of the others are grim. Terminal 2 had a facelift recently and isn't that bad anymore. I wouldn't mind all that though if it worked as an airport should, which it doesn't in my experience.

 

Gatwick is a less traumatic airport to navigate but is full of Saaath London chavs so it's swings and roundabouts.

The holding patterns result because of a lack of runway capacity.

[Rayvin 5541]

It's quite simple. You want the government to enact unelectable policies to absolve yourself of personal responsibility.

 

People are happy to have a police force because the societal good that does is tangible. Nobody is ever going to vote in a government who makes foreign holidays unattainable though. But your attitude seems to be that if the government doesn't bring about such a law, you won't exercise your personal beliefs in the planet's welfare.

 

I think it's more that it would be pointless for him to do so. HF isn't going to save the world on his own.

 

This isn't one of those things that you can leave to 'the people'.

 

Besides, if all main parties got behind it, it'd get through.

[Renton 22378]

Renton seems bizarrely determined that people who disagree with him are hypocrites rather than just wrong. I think it's because he has some self loathing issues about going over to the dark side...

If someone is seriously worried about climate change then they're a hypocrite if they fly on holiday. Like a vegetarian wearing leather shoes. I'm hypocritical in a lot of my actions but I try and recognise this at least.

[Renton 22378]

I think it's more that it would be pointless for him to do so. HF isn't going to save the world on his own.

 

This isn't one of those things that you can leave to 'the people'.

 

Besides, if all main parties got behind it, it'd get through.

Okay, but he's still a hypocrite. I mean, there's nothing meaningful the UK can do with 1% of the world's population, so I guess there's no point.

[Rayvin 5541]

If someone is seriously worried about climate change then they're a hypocrite if they fly on holiday. Like a vegetarian wearing leather shoes. I'm hypocritical in a lot of my actions but I try and recognise this at least.

 

Well that's fair enough in truth, but I do actually think this is one of those things where an individual makes no difference. Legislation against companies is what is needed.

[Rayvin 5541]

Okay, but he's still a hypocrite. I mean, there's nothing meaningful the UK can do with 1% of the world's population, so I guess there's no point.

 

That much is true in the same way that 'the individual can't do anything' is true. A bit less so, given the UK's status, but still relevant. We'd need universal acceptance of the challenges and that's not going to happen unless we're 'all in'.

[Renton 22378]

Well that's fair enough in truth, but I do actually think this is one of those things where an individual makes no difference. Legislation against companies is what is needed.

But is politically impossible, much like a Corbyn government.

[Happy Face 29]

It's quite simple. You want the government to enact unelectable policies to absolve yourself of personal responsibility.

 

People are happy to have a police force because the societal good that does is tangible. Nobody is ever going to vote in a government who makes foreign holidays unattainable though. But your attitude seems to be that if the government doesn't bring about such a law, you won't exercise your personal beliefs in the planet's welfare.

I never said anything about making foreign holidays unattainable. I said they should be as attainable as they were in the 70s.

[Dr Gloom 22493]

The holding patterns result because of a lack of runway capacity.

Ok. We are getting a new runway but have you seen what it's going to do to flight and passenger volume? I highly doubt that the passenger experience isn't going to continue to be shit.

[Rayvin 5541]

Renton has a good point here, thinking about it.

 

If the argument that we as individuals can't do a sufficient amount to make a difference, and that government's should legislate for it, then you'd have to say that we as a country are in the same position.

 

You'd need a body like the UN (but with power) to actually make any meaningful change. A federation of nations. Something like the EU...

[Dr Gloom 22493]

It's not even the biggest argument though. It's noise and pollution for me that makes it a shit idea

[ewerk 31547]

I never said anything about making foreign holidays unattainable. I said they should be as attainable as they were in the 70s.

As should Aids and cancer treatment.

 

Let's sort out the population crisis while we're at it.

[Rayvin 5541]

It's not even the biggest argument though. It's noise and pollution for me that makes it a shit idea

 

Aye which makes sense in your case. It's a NIMBY position but it's still relevant.

[Rayvin 5541]

As should Aids and cancer treatment.

 

Let's sort out the population crisis while we're at it.

 

Solving the latter one would solve all the others, very likely.

[Renton 22378]

Renton has a good point here, thinking about it.

 

If the argument that we as individuals can't do a sufficient amount to make a difference, and that government's should legislate for it, then you'd have to say that we as a country are in the same position.

 

You'd need a body like the UN (but with power) to actually make any meaningful change. A federation of nations. Something like the EU...

Roddenberry utopia ftw. I actually sympathise because I want government to have more control over our lives, not less. I think charities are often a cop out because they excuse the government from their responsibilities, for instance. I accept it's a minority view and I accept I am an HF-like hypocrite though.

[Renton 22378]

I never said anything about making foreign holidays unattainable. I said they should be as attainable as they were in the 70s.

In the 1970s foreign holidays were unattainable for the majority. Holidays like yours to the west coast of the USA would have been unheard of for a prole like yourself.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Renton

[Happy Face 29]

In the 1970s foreign holidays were unattainable for the majority. Holidays like yours to the west coast of the USA would have been unheard of for a prole like yourself.

And in the 90s I could smoke in a pub and now I can't.

[Happy Face 29]

Think you're thinking of the 50s though, if the family photos from the 70s are anything to go by.

[Renton 22378]

My family couldn't afford foreign holidays in the 1970s. I think you want to deny working and lower middle class families from their sangria. Not to mention the billions of people in the developing world.

[Happy Face 29]

As should Aids and cancer treatment.

 

Let's sort out the population crisis while we're at it.

Spot on. Move all the aids and cancer research money into green investment.

[Renton 22378]

And in the 90s I could smoke in a pub and now I can't.

You could smoke on the plane to your holiday in the US. Not sure what the point is.....

[Happy Face 29]

My family couldn't afford foreign holidays in the 1970s. I think you want to deny working and lower middle class families from their sangria. Not to mention the billions of people in the developing world.

They can cycle to work and trade their daily commute petrol tokens for flying tokens with people who want to drive and not fly in the new green economy.

[Happy Face 29]

Renton has a good point here, thinking about it.

 

If the argument that we as individuals can't do a sufficient amount to make a difference, and that government's should legislate for it, then you'd have to say that we as a country are in the same position.

 

You'd need a body like the UN (but with power) to actually make any meaningful change. A federation of nations. Something like the EU...

I agree.

 

As it stands trade agreements are made entirely in secret and we have to rely on wikileaks for the details so we can put up any opposition. The likes of the WTO always put industry ahead of environment when pushing then through in private. Needs governments that will meaningfully oppose such things and only sign up to agreements that reverse emissions, not add to them.

[Rayvin 5541]

That's a useful suggestion. For that, you'd need a party voted in with this sort of thing in its manifesto. Achievable, albeit unlikely.