Politics

[Dr Gloom 22299]

naz shah made the comment initially. livingstone attempted to defend it and unsurprisingly lost his job. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 22152]

Just reading through the talking points from Labour conference, this one seems quite interesting:

 

Labour is split over how to interpret the Brexit vote. Many MPs believe that immigration was a key factor and increasingly there are calls for the party to abandon its commitment to the free movement of labour. But Corbyn sees the Brexit vote as primarily a vote against the economic status quo and, as he confirmed this morning, he is opposed to immigration controls. Interestingly, this is one issue where Labour’s old right, which is sceptical about immigration, disagrees with the pro-free movement Blairite right. On this topic Corbyn is a Blairite.

 

Again, I'd naturally agree with Corbyn on this - and by extension, Blair.

I don't really understand Corbyn's stance here. He's more than pro-immigration, he practically wants to have a borderless state. Yet at the same time, he's anti-EU. Sorry to keep banging on about it but he's going to have a hard task selling his immigration policy to people who have drifted to UKip isn't he?

[Rayvin 5403]

naz shah made the comment initially. livingstone attempted to defend it and unsurprisingly lost his job. 

 

So hang on, Naz Shah said that Hitler was right to do what... I'm assuming not the holocaust? I recall something about this, but I was under the impression that it was some reference to Zionism...?

[Rayvin 5403]

I don't really understand Corbyn's stance here. He's more than pro-immigration, he practically wants to have a borderless state. Yet at the same time, he's anti-EU. Sorry to keep banging on about it but he's going to have a hard task selling his immigration policy to people who have drifted to UKip isn't he?

 

Absolutely he is, I'm just saying he seems to support the view that you, I, and most people on here have about immigration when it comes to the EU - i.e. that limiting immigration, while it might be what people think they want, isn't actually the solution.

 

I think it's commendable for him to say that.

 

But yes, it's a hard sell.

[Dr Gloom 22299]

So hang on, Naz Shah said that Hitler was right to do what... I'm assuming not the holocaust? I recall something about this, but I was under the impression that it was some reference to Zionism...?

 

it was actually a social media rant of hers that was picked up by guido fawkes, there was other crazy shit in there as well, comparing israel to nazis and saying its citzens should be "transported" out of the country to the US.

 

then livingstone paid the price for his horror show interview with vanessa feltz where he basically defended her to the hilt and made the case that technically the holocaust was legal because hitler pass the laws to make it so, the fucking moron. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5403]

Ahhh. Yes ok I see how he's arrived at that conclusion (Livingstone) but agree that it's a ridiculous thing to say - likely out of desperation.

 

I don't see why it's so hard to focus political attacks on Israel and not all Jewish people though. Although I suppose Livingstone would likely argue that he does this and that he is misrepresented.

[Dr Gloom 22299]

that interview he gave with feltz was like something you'd see in the thick of it, only much worse. 

[NJS 4431]

I quite like Ken in some ways but it's obvious he's the wrong side of the anti-zionism/anti-Semite line.

[Dr Gloom 22299]

Ahhh. Yes ok I see how he's arrived at that conclusion (Livingstone) but agree that it's a ridiculous thing to say - likely out of desperation.

 

I don't see why it's so hard to focus political attacks on Israel and not all Jewish people though. Although I suppose Livingstone would likely argue that he does this and that he is misrepresented.

 

this isn't misrepresentaion. it's an accurate representation of a serious problem within labour ranks.

 

it's frankly unbelievable that naz shah has been reinstated. she also asked people to vote in an online poll because 'the jews are rallying’, argued that orthodox jews were involved in the sex trafficking trade and compared the israel flag to the swastika. 

 

this from the independent on labour's antisemitic problem in shah's hometown of bradford

 

 

When it comes to anti-Semitic comments, Shah is not even the worst offender. In 2014, former councillor Istiaq Ahmed, who works at the charity Shah chairs, posted on social media “Is Kosher slaughter in the Eternal Jew accurate?” – a link to an anti-Semitic propaganda movie originally commissioned by Goebbels. The YouTube channel that hosted it? ”HitlerMyFuhrer”. 

The former Lord Mayor of Bradford Khadim Hussain commented on Facebook that Israel was “no doubt” arming Isis, and shared another Facebook post that complained that the deaths of millions of Africans are not taught in schools but “your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists that were killed by Hitler”. The list goes on and on.

And when I visited Bradford, a group of passionate Galloway supporters pinned me to a wall, throttled me and punched me in the head, shouting “Get out you f***ing Jew.” Just par for the course in Bradford

[adios 717]

That's not really the point though is it? Corbyn thinks he can sit down with a cup of tea with the likes of ISIS and come to a peace deal. He also reiterated he would never use Trident under any circumstances, thus rendering it useless as a deterrent. What do you think the likes of Putin will make of that. He's also showing contempt for the party position and the PLP. Completely unelectable.

 

 

As for Sanders adios, honestly don't know enough about him to pass comment. If his nomination had guaranteed Trump's success though it's probably a good thing he has bowed out. Like Corbyn, he's also too old anyway. Of course I'd love the US to swing to the left but it's not going to happen without civil unrest imo.

This is the point, though.  The DNC were worried enough about Sanders to try and sabotage his campaign. Without that, and Super Delegates, he was unbelievably close, in the US ffs.  In spite of his age, and being Jewish while being critical of Israel.

 

He would have beaten Trump too.  So the US was ready for a candidate as far left as Corbyn, even with the thoroughly racist and backwards South and (to a lesser extent) Mid-West.  Surely a more progressive Britain could do the same?

 

As I've stated before, we're moving away from the centre, and unfortunately, I think the fear mongers will win, but it's probably a necessary evolution.  The populace is going to be a lot more fired up by 2020.

 

And you can't cry ad hominem with the vitriol you spew about Corbyn supporters (16yo kids etc.).

[Christmas Tree 4889]

Putting aside his terrible presentational skills, (which he can't help), this speech is horrific. Spend Spend Spend, free the unions, put business tax up and more spend, spend, spend.

 

Old Labours well and truly back.

[ewerk 31309]

This is the point, though.  The DNC were worried enough about Sanders to try and sabotage his campaign. Without that, and Super Delegates, he was unbelievably close, in the US ffs.  In spite of his age, and being Jewish while being critical of Israel.

 

 

Well he lost by 3.7m votes, 12% of the popular vote in a two horse race and by 34 contests to 23. Wasn't really that tight.

Edited September 28, 2016 by ewerk

[Rayvin 5403]

Example of Corbyn setting out a spending policy with where it will come from:

 

We’ve already started to set out some of this … pledging to raise corporation tax by less than 1.5% to give an Education Maintenance Allowance to college students … and grants to university students … so that every young learner can afford to support themselves as they develop skills and get qualifications.

[Rayvin 5403]

Well he lost my 3.7m votes, 12% of the popular vote in a two horse race and by 34 contests to 23. Wasn't really that tight.

 

Wow, didn't realise you held such sway in the US political sphere.

[ewerk 31309]

You're in no position to pick on my mistakes after your shocker earlier.

[Renton 22152]

This is the point, though. The DNC were worried enough about Sanders to try and sabotage his campaign. Without that, and Super Delegates, he was unbelievably close, in the US ffs. In spite of his age, and being Jewish while being critical of Israel.

 

He would have beaten Trump too. So the US was ready for a candidate as far left as Corbyn, even with the thoroughly racist and backwards South and (to a lesser extent) Mid-West. Surely a more progressive Britain could do the same?

 

As I've stated before, we're moving away from the centre, and unfortunately, I think the fear mongers will win, but it's probably a necessary evolution. The populace is going to be a lot more fired up by 2020.

 

And you can't cry ad hominem with the vitriol you spew about Corbyn supporters (16yo kids etc.).

This is all highly speculative stuff HF, but as I said the discussion spurred me on to directly compare the policies of Clinton and Sanders and I was very surprised at their similarities. And to say Sanders is further left than Corbyn is rather spurious to say the least.

 

You do know that as hominem is an attack on an individual, not a group, don't you? Also is it really an insult to call a 16 year old kid, a, erm, 16 year old kid?

 

Edit: apologies adios, thought you were HF there cor a minute for some reason.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Renton

[ewerk 31309]

Example of Corbyn setting out a spending policy with where it will come from:

 

We’ve already started to set out some of this … pledging to raise corporation tax by less than 1.5% to give an Education Maintenance Allowance to college students … and grants to university students … so that every young learner can afford to support themselves as they develop skills and get qualifications.

 

And how many will be eligible for these allowances and grants?

[Renton 22152]

Might add. If Sanders has dragged Clinton further to the left he's fulfilled a useful purpose. I believe he supports her candidature now too.

[Rayvin 5403]

You're in no position to pick on my mistakes after your shocker earlier.

 

 

 

And how many will be eligible for these allowances and grants?

 

He didn't say. It'll be interesting, but as someone who benefitted from a University grant, I hope it covers as many people as it can, ultimately.

[ewerk 31309]

I disagree. Grants should be for the poorest. We'd be better off lowering fees to a reasonable level and giving loans to most students. Like it was in my day (clearly many years after you, you old cunt).

[Rayvin 5403]

I disagree. Grants should be for the poorest. We'd be better off lowering fees to a reasonable level and giving loans to most students. Like it was in my day (clearly many years after you, you old cunt).

 

Well I meant the poorest, but I suppose it depends where you draw the line on poor? I had a loan as well by the way along with a grant for being poor. I'm the proud owner of £18k student loan debt.

[Rayvin 5403]

More from Corbyn - for gloom's benefit I think:

 

We are a long way from that humanitarian vision … Britain continues to sell arms to Saudi Arabia … a country that the United Nations says is committing repeated violations of international humanitarian law … war crimes … in Yemen........ just as we have seen taking place in Syria.

So today I make it clear … that under a Labour government … when there are credible reports of human rights abuses or war crimes being committed … British arms sales will be suspended, starting with Saudi Arabia.

[Dr Gloom 22299]

surprised parky the jew hunter isn't all over the antisemitism discussion 

[Rayvin 5403]

 

Me too, actually. Was sure he'd turn up with his videos and so on.

 

Anyways, I'd seriously recommend reading or watching Corbyn's speech to anyone who is skeptical. It was a good fucking speech despite what CT thinks. The Guardian was doing a MBM of it here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/sep/28/jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-today-interview

[NJS 4431]

This is all highly speculative stuff HF, but as I said the discussion spurred me on to directly compare the policies of Clinton and Sanders and I was very surprised at their similarities. And to say Sanders is further left than Corbyn is rather spurious to say the least.

 

You do know that as hominem is an attack on an individual, not a group, don't you? Also is it really an insult to call a 16 year old kid, a, erm, 16 year old kid?

 

Edit: apologies adios, thought you were HF there cor a minute for some reason.

Was the comparison at the start or the end of the campaign/after nomination?

 

I always thought that the optimistic result because of Sanders was an influence on her policies - of course implementing them is another matter.