Politics

[NJS 4365]

We have a grammar school system here and we generally outperform the rest of the UK every year when it comes to exam results. Maybe it can work.

Is that including the written off pupils/schools?

 

Flexible streaming within a comprehensive is the best imo.

[Renton 21231]

Thing is, there will always be a degree of selection going on, even with a comprehensive model. Schools in richer areas will have an intake of better off kids and outperform schools in poorer areas etc. Unavoidable I think. But we can avoid the blatant selection of grammar schools. Also scrap faith schools at the same time, or at least stop their discriminatory selection practices.

[Gemmill 44265]

I read an article this morning that people are willing to pay an average of an extra £53k on top of the asking price for a house in the catchment area of a good school. So poorer people are fucked however you cut it.

 

Renton must be sitting on a decent nest egg since Kings stopped being private. No matter the sob stories about seagulls.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

I read an article this morning that people are willing to pay an average of an extra £53k on top of the asking price for a house in the catchment area of a good school. So poorer people are fucked however you cut it.

 

Renton must be sitting on a decent nest egg since Kings stopped being private. No matter the sob stories about seagulls.

Taxi driver I work with in Boldon got his daughter into Kings when it changed.

[Renton 21231]

What happened with Kings was pretty much a disgrace, the public sector effectively being forced to bail out a failed private school. I've always lived in Tynemouth though and it's my nearest school by far, so I'm going to use it. In any case, it's very hard not to be hypocritical when it's your own kids education at stake. Whether that makes you a Tory cunt is up for debate.

[Gemmill 44265]

What happened with Kings was pretty much a disgrace, the public sector effectively being forced to bail out a failed private school. I've always lived in Tynemouth though and it's my nearest school by far, so I'm going to use it. In any case, it's very hard not to be hypocritical when it's your own kids education at stake. Whether that makes you a Tory cunt is up for debate.

Aye you'd be daft not to. The facilities will be top notch. I went to posh school anyway, so can't really comment on any of this. [emoji38]

[Dr Gloom 21801]

Aye you'd be daft not to. The facilities will be top notch. I went to posh school anyway, so can't really comment on any of this. [emoji38]

 

that explains a lot.

 

soap in a rope in the showers? 

[Gemmill 44265]

Je ne fag pas.

[The Fish 10685]

Higher education should be free for whomever is capable of getting in, but getting in should be much, much harder. Like you say, there are worthless degrees out there and families spending tens of thousands on helping their kids get them. 

 

There should be a difference between a degree from a redbrick University and whatever else is out there, and getting into University should be fucking difficult.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Brings me nicely back to nursing. Spoke to two very nice and caring trainee nurses today who are dropping out because they find the academic side too hard.

[Gemmill 44265]

Higher education should be free for whomever is capable of getting in, but getting in should be much, much harder. Like you say, there are worthless degrees out there and families spending tens of thousands on helping their kids get them.

 

There should be a difference between a degree from a redbrick University and whatever else is out there, and getting into University should be fucking difficult.

That policy would have been like invisible gastric band surgery for you had it been implemented in the years leading up to your UCAS application.

[Gemmill 44265]

Brings me nicely back to nursing. Spoke to two very nice and caring trainee nurses today who are dropping out because they find the academic side too hard.

"Nice and caring"? Sounds like you were getting a hand job off them, you filthy creep.

[Renton 21231]

Higher education should be free for whomever is capable of getting in, but getting in should be much, much harder. Like you say, there are worthless degrees out there and families spending tens of thousands on helping their kids get them.

 

There should be a difference between a degree from a redbrick University and whatever else is out there, and getting into University should be fucking difficult.

How it used to be. When I went to uni, not only was there no fees, I got a maintenance grant. Plus I could sign on in summer.

[Renton 21231]

I went to a grammar School, and like ewerk mentioned it was the same for mine, fairly varied background of students, from places like ardoyne/new lodge to better areas of belfast/surrounding areas, fair few celebs went to it over the years but it wasn't a "private" style school costing £1000 a year or whatever, "voluntary" fee of £75 iirc

 

You had to pass the transfer test whether it was the 11plus/newer versions etc to get into obviously, which imo i see no problem with.

The kids who don't get in end up in a perfectly adequate school as well, It's hard to hear for parents but just because as much as they may want little jimmy to be #1 superstar pupil doesn't mean they will have the aptitude for it, "work hard and you can do anything you want" is simply a myth.

There's a big difference between education and intelligence and without having a particular level of the latter the former isn't going do dick no matter where you go to get it.

 

Putting a kid in a class where he might struggle or needs more time to pick something up but it isn't going to be well catered for his level is as bad as putting someone a bit brighter in a class that bores the shit out of them.

 

How would you handle a class with such a mixed variance? in my school you had to do the toughest tiers for A-level/GCSE you couldn't choose intermediate or lower tier for subjects, if you had 30kids in a class and half of them are capable of the higher and the rest lower neither will get what they need, so they'll possibly "stream" them, which defeats the point.

(we had quite a few guys transfer in for 6th year to do a-levels from secondary schools as well)

 

I hope to god they never abolish uni fees, it's too fucking easy to get into uni and get a degree in "something" as it is. Students whinging about how they can't get a job and have all this student debt hanging over them while turning around and going "aye i got 2x D's at a-level so applied to backwater college bristol to do a degree in archaeology... so obviously this helps me with applying as a graduate consultant to PWC"

And how do you ensure the 11+ is fair (kids aren't tutored)? What about late developers or kids who at that age can't handle the stress? If the other secondary schools are also good, why bother? What a load of shite.

[The Fish 10685]

That policy would have been like invisible gastric band surgery for you had it been implemented in the years leading up to your UCAS application.

 

Getting in wasn't the problem for me, it was what happened once I got there that started all this trouble.

[Rayvin 5164]

I went to a bog standard school with no selectiveness. It was a decent enough school but they would let anyone in. I did reasonably at A level but worse than I hoped/predicted and had to go into clearance. I found a degree which I thought would work for me and got a 2:1 - in Chinese. Under the model that both Fish and Ant suggest, I would have either been too poor (only able to afford university, even back before the tuition fees hike, because I qualified for a government grant and higher than normal student loan), or not successful enough at school to qualify.

 

I now have a second degree in which I got a distinction, and run a £2m company (not mine, I hasten to add). I would not have had the opportunity to do this if either of your policies were in place. And I'm damn sure I do better than most people who outperformed me at school. As someone else very wisely said, people progress at different speeds, and school education performance should not be something that dictates what happens across the rest of your life. University gives people options and the chance to work out where they're heading in life, especially those people (arguably like me) who just weren't hugely interested in school.

 

If I hadn't had this opportunity, I genuinely dread to think where I'd be in life - because I was fucking useless before University.

[ewerk 30221]

Is that including the written off pupils/schools?

 

Flexible streaming within a comprehensive is the best imo.

 

That's among all schools. About 68 grammar vs 140 non-grammar so it seems to be working for both sets of pupils.

[Dickie 0]

And how do you ensure the 11+ is fair (kids aren't tutored)? What about late developers or kids who at that age can't handle the stress? If the other secondary schools are also good, why bother? What a load of shite.

 

Selective grammar schools with an entrance exam at age 11 is brutal, cruel and just wrong iyam. At best the kid is going to take a massive knock to his confidence and at worst he's going to feel like he's consigned to the scrap heap before he's ever had a chance. Flexible streaming within the comprehensive system has to be the best way - that way kids can move up and down as they develop at different speeds. 11 year old seems to be arbitrary and it's far too young. I was a little radgie at that age, was right near the bottom of the class in every subject, especially maths. I developed late and got my act together just in time for GCSEs and went on to do a phd in applied maths at one of the best universities in the world. If I'd been told at 11 that it had been decided that I was an academic no hoper I wonder if that would have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Rayvin 5164]

Selective grammar schools with an entrance exam at age 11 is brutal, cruel and just wrong iyam. At best the kid is going to take a massive knock to his confidence and at worst he's going to feel like he's consigned to the scrap heap before he's ever had a chance. Flexible streaming within the comprehensive system has to be the best way - that way kids can move up and down as they develop at different speeds. 11 year old seems to be arbitrary and it's far too young. I was a little radgie at that age, was right near the bottom of the class in every subject, especially maths. I developed late and got my act together just in time for GCSEs and went on to do a phd in applied maths at one of the best universities in the world. If I'd been told at 11 that it had been decided that I was an academic no hoper I wonder if that would have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Good post.

[ewerk 30221]

And how do you ensure the 11+ is fair (kids aren't tutored)? What about late developers or kids who at that age can't handle the stress? If the other secondary schools are also good, why bother? What a load of shite.

 

My wife was in bad health around the time of her 11+ and failed it and ended up going to a non-grammar. When she recovered she did well in that school and after three years was able to apply to a grammar school for entry and was accepted. The door to grammar school isn't completely shut on anyone at the age of 10/11.

[ewerk 30221]

Selective grammar schools with an entrance exam at age 11 is brutal, cruel and just wrong iyam. At best the kid is going to take a massive knock to his confidence and at worst he's going to feel like he's consigned to the scrap heap before he's ever had a chance. 

 

As someone who has gone through the system and knows many people from both school types I can say that is simply not true. Of course those who fail are disappointed at the time but they're kids, they soon get over it.

[Dr Gloom 21801]

Selective grammar schools with an entrance exam at age 11 is brutal, cruel and just wrong iyam. At best the kid is going to take a massive knock to his confidence and at worst he's going to feel like he's consigned to the scrap heap before he's ever had a chance. Flexible streaming within the comprehensive system has to be the best way - that way kids can move up and down as they develop at different speeds. 11 year old seems to be arbitrary and it's far too young. I was a little radgie at that age, was right near the bottom of the class in every subject, especially maths. I developed late and got my act together just in time for GCSEs and went on to do a phd in applied maths at one of the best universities in the world. If I'd been told at 11 that it had been decided that I was an academic no hoper I wonder if that would have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

absolutely spot on. advocates of grammar schools are usually tory twats

[The Fish 10685]

I don't understand why failing to get into Grammar schools because of your academic ability at that time stops you developing later and succeeding anyway, as both your examples suggest happened?

[Renton 21231]

Well, we've heard the opinion of 2 people who benefited from Grammar school and 2 people who most certainly wouldn't have. Therein lies the problem.

[The Fish 10685]

Well, we've heard the opinion of 2 people who benefited from Grammar school and 2 people who most certainly wouldn't have. Therein lies the problem.

 

They may not have benefited, but would they have suffered? Doesn't sound like not getting into a Grammar school would have made a whole heap of difference to that part of their lives?