Politics

[Rayvin 5164]

 

 

Traditional labour found Blair a bitter enough pill to swallow but accepted it when it won elections, but the complete capitulation on what caused the economic crisis in 2008 means that the lie is cast in stone for a long time to come that a labour government couldn't manage the books, even as it embraced the centre. Takes a couple of generations for betrayals like that to be forgiven.

 

Absolutely spot on.

[Rayvin 5164]

It had a chance of re-building once rid of Corbyn and momentum. Now it's just handed Theresa May a guaranteed 2nd term.

 

It really didn't mate. It was done the second we voted out. I think I even said so, not that I'm going to wade back through to check.

 

The second the working class threw their lot in with UKIP, and the UK voted out of Europe and thus allowed the possibility of a Scottish referendum again, Labour were done.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

It might if Labour split - imagine if the Tories were fighting off a union of all of these small left wing parties. PR would be inevitable as the Tories would have total control otherwise.

They've already got a majority which will increase with the boundary changes. Meanwhile UKIP are going to pick off the Labour heartlands.

 

It's over.

[Rayvin 5164]

They've already got a majority which will increase with the boundary changes. Meanwhile UKIP are going to pick off the Labour heartlands.

 

It's over.

 

I definitely said that bit. I think I was expressing something like 'there's going to be right wing governments for a generation or more'. You argued that this wouldn't be the case.

 

I told you so...

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

 

I'm agreeing with what you've been saying all week man. The Tories don't all unite behind a candidate because they're willing to put aside fundamental differences to get into power at any cost. They have shared principles by and large. Those priniciples are to the right of centre. The only issue that has led to splits within the Conservative party for decades have revolved around European membership. Isolationists have won the exit and europhiles have a remainer PM. All happy.

 

Traditional labour found Blair a bitter enough pill to swallow but accepted it when it won elections, but the complete capitulation on what caused the economic crisis in 2008 means that the lie is cast in stone for a long time to come that a labour government couldn't manage the books, even as it embraced the centre. Takes a couple of generations for betrayals like that to be forgiven.

That's the reputation they had in 79, 18 years later they were back in power. (As soon as they moved centre and got a proper leader).

 

Dave Milliband in 2010 would have won in 2010 or at the very least run a coalition.

 

Letting a few hundred thousand angry students take over the membership via social media has turned it into the Corbyn cult.

 

Sure I'll poke a bit fun as a Tory, but this is a very dark day for politics.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

I definitely said that bit. I think I was expressing something like 'there's going to be right wing governments for a generation or more'. You argued that this wouldn't be the case.

 

I told you so...

 

Basically, it didn't have to be this way.

[Rayvin 5164]

It did though. This was inevitable as soon as we voted out. Had we stayed in, Corbyn could have spoken out to the working class and better represented them than Labour has managed to do so up until now. But he came too late, and was hamstrung by fuckwits.

 

The conclusion was that the working class took matters into their own hands, threw the country as we know it onto the scrap heap, obliterated Labour, and handed free reign and uninterrupted supremacy to the Tories.

 

I bet they're going to be looked after now though, the Tories always take decisions that work in the favour of those at the bottom, as we know...

 

We all fucking deserve this, that's the mental thing.

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Rayvin

[Happy Face 29]

That's the reputation they had in 79, 18 years later they were back in power. (As soon as they moved centre and got a proper leader).

 

Dave Milliband in 2010 would have won in 2010 or at the very least run a coalition.

 

Letting a few hundred thousand angry students take over the membership via social media has turned it into the Corbyn cult.

 

Sure I'll poke a bit fun as a Tory, but this is a very dark day for politics.

 

Exactly, we're not half way through the time Labour spent in the wilderness last time around. They can continue another 12 years of internal squabling and maybe find someone to unite them when memories ave faded, or split.

 

Daft to blame Corbyn supporters for where things are. Non-Corbyn MPs put him on the ballot because they were out of touch and never thought the membership would swing that violently away from the centre. And why did they do that? 2008. 2010 & 2015.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

Exactly, we're not half way through the time Labour spent in the wilderness last time around. They can continue another 12 years of internal squabling and maybe find someone to unite them when memories ave faded, or split.

 

Daft to blame Corbyn supporters for where things are. Non-Corbyn MPs put him on the ballot because they were out of touch and never thought the membership would swing that violently away from the centre. And why did they do that? 2008. 2010 & 2015.

Labour didn't help themselves with Foot and Kinnick though and if you fast forward to 2010 - 2015, D Milliband was a popular politician and would have been fighting a Tory party having completed 5 years of austerity. I still believe he would have done a lot better than Ed.

 

As for Corbyn, his cult grew because a young generation of activists were hearing that intoxicating far left promise of a new world for the first time. It always sounds so tempting but is never actually achievable which is why it falls flat at the polling station.

 

Anyway. C'est la vie.

[Kid Dynamite 6985]

Labour members have to pay £25 to vote

 

Wtf

[Rayvin 5164]

Labour didn't help themselves with Foot and Kinnick though and if you fast forward to 2010 - 2015, D Milliband was a popular politician and would have been fighting a Tory party having completed 5 years of austerity. I still believe he would have done a lot better than Ed.

 

As for Corbyn, his cult grew because a young generation of activists were hearing that intoxicating far left promise of a new world for the first time. It always sounds so tempting but is never actually achievable which is why it falls flat at the polling station.

 

Anyway. C'est la vie.

 

'Far' left ideals remain unrealised because no one ever gets a chance to try it - because everyone is told that it doesn't work, and therefore that it can't win.

 

Not because it functionally can't work.

 

Unless you're thinking of Communism (the actual far left, and much farther left than Corbyn), which did fail. But then, so has Neo-Liberalism, and yet here we are...

[Happy Face 29]

https://youtu.be/kUtO5Ygu7y4

 

Apologies if already posted, but..rofl

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

'Far' left ideals remain unrealised because no one ever gets a chance to try it - because everyone is told that it doesn't work, and therefore that it can't win.

 

Not because it functionally can't work.

 

Unless you're thinking of Communism (the actual far left, and much farther left than Corbyn), which did fail. But then, so has Neo-Liberalism, and yet here we are...

 

But the fact that nobody believes in them enough should tell you something.

 

I compared his leadership challenge at the time to Syriza in Greece. They won power promising all sorts of goodies that they never had a hope of achieving.

 

It's the same with the far left. Promise to nationalise or fix everything, print a bit of money and it will all be ok.

 

The talk is always very appealing but try and thrash them out into a costed manifesto and it falls apart.

 

You surely agree there isn't a hope in hell of Corbyn winning the 2020 election?

 

Is it worth destroying the Labour Party to let him play at this for another 4 years.

 

He should have come out the meeting tonight statesmanship like but bemoaning two wasted months having a leadership race but instead he was beside himself with excitement at the debates to come up and down the country. It's just a game to him.

 

Watch Newsnight as well to see what's happening at grass roots level. Eagles constituency overrun by momentum people who only joined labour last year and are now running the operation.

 

Deselection seems the key word going forward. Wouldn't surprise me if the leadership is called off and they all jump ship now and give themselves 4 years to re-brand.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

https://youtu.be/kUtO5Ygu7y4

 

Apologies if already posted, but..rofl

 

Pretty apt after tonight as well.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Christmas Tree

[Park Life 71]

The whole issue is that Corby although an internationalist isn't a globalist and if you can work out the difference you'll know why they're after him.

[PaddockLad 17067]

"United we stand, divided we fall" by Geordie M

 

http://www.monbiot.com/2016/07/06/labour-savers/

[Christmas Tree 4679]

So Owen Smiths running. Any good?

 

Could he unite you Labour folk?

[Rayvin 5164]

No. Labour is dead. We covered this last night.

[Gemmill 44265]

Odd for CT who claims he doesn't identify with one side or another to suddenly be coming out with "As a Tory..." and "you Labour folk". It's almost as if he shits everything he says out of his arse.

[Dr Gloom 21801]

It does look like the Labour Party as we know it has imploded, possibly for good. This isn't necessarily the worst thing. A broad alliance of progressive parties could form a coalition government in the next election if the Tories fail to win a majority. Labour, in whatever form it fractures into, getting into bed with the Lib Dems and the SNP.

 

The Tories could lose ground to UKIP if we do end up with Brexit lite, or a second referendum.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Odd for CT who claims he doesn't identify with one side or another to suddenly be coming out with "As a Tory..." and "you Labour folk". It's almost as if he shits everything he says out of his arse.

 

So over the last 8 years you've come to the conclusion I'm neutral.

[Gemmill 44265]

 

So over the last 8 years you've come to the conclusion I'm neutral.

No I've come to a quite different conclusion.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

It does look like the Labour Party as we know it has imploded, possibly for good. This isn't necessarily the worst thing. A broad coalition of progressive parties could form a coalition government in the next election of the Tories fail to win a majority. Labour, in whatever form it fractures, getting into bed with the Lib Dems and the SNP.

 

The Tories could lose ground to UKIP if we do end up with Brexit lite, or a second referendum.

It was that sort of thinking that just returned a Tory majority.

 

[Dr Gloom 21801]

The SNP have moved to the left and cleaned up in Scotland, funny that.

[Dr Gloom 21801]

If only Labour had a leader like Nicola Sturgeon or a young Mahri Black type coming through