Politics

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Corbyn gets no credit for being consistently and quickly oh the right side of those issues? Or for any contribution to those u-turns (though obviously Tory rebels have had the biggest sway there). He only gets abuse for not gloating and using the issues to play politics after the event?

 

It might harm him that he won't play that game, but if anyone is truly concerned about those issues then corbyn has been consistently on the right side of the debate as his opponent flip flops.

 

Same with the uturn on disability benefits too.

 

Isn't criticising him for these things only evidence of an agenda rather than of any failure of leadership?

Have you looked at the data to see who is supporting him (under 25's etc).

[ewerk 30221]

He's going to have to stop with these astonishing attacks though.

 

[Monkeys Fist 42004]

What's astonishing about that?

He's calling the bloke, and his employers, out as a pack of cunts.

Regardless of his "electability", he's not wrong on that.

[Dickie 0]

How is that an "attack"? Pathetic.

[Renton 21231]

Corbyn gets no credit for being consistently and quickly oh the right side of those issues? Or for any contribution to those u-turns (though obviously Tory rebels have had the biggest sway there). He only gets abuse for not gloating and using the issues to play politics after the event?

 

It might harm him that he won't play that game, but if anyone is truly concerned about those issues then corbyn has been consistently on the right side of the debate as his opponent flip flops.

 

Same with the uturn on disability benefits too.

 

Isn't criticising him for these things only evidence of an agenda rather than of any failure of leadership?

No, he gets zero credit for being insipidly on the right side of these obviously wrong policies. Any other labour leader, even Miliband, would have opposed these much more effectively and made some political capital, which would translate to support, which would translate to votes, which would translate to seats.......

 

What agenda and from whom are you suggesting? Get real, he was always going to be a media liability with a questionable past. That's a huge part of the problem. The other problem is, unlike say Foot, he's an intellectual lightweight. Fatal combination.

[ewerk 30221]

What's astonishing about that?

He's calling the bloke, and his employers, out as a pack of cunts.

Regardless of his "electability", he's not wrong on that.

 

I think some actual astonishing attacks wouldn't go amiss.

[Renton 21231]

He gets off relatively easy from the right wing press imo as he's not a threat. If he ever was, the knives would truly be out like they have been for every other labour leader apart from Blair. The last thing they want is for him to go.

[Happy Face 29]

No, he gets zero credit for being insipidly on the right side of these obviously wrong policies. Any other labour leader, even Miliband, would have opposed these much more effectively and made some political capital, which would translate to support, which would translate to votes, which would translate to seats.......

 

What agenda and from whom are you suggesting? Get real, he was always going to be a media liability with a questionable past. That's a huge part of the problem. The other problem is, unlike say Foot, he's an intellectual lightweight. Fatal combination.

You sound like you're making the situation fit with the same arguments you were making 7 months ago.

 

In that time the Tories have stepped from one disaster to another. Corbyn has had one significant challenge with this anti Semitism bollocks and dealt with it swiftly and decisively while the Tories ran an actual racist campaign with a fraction of the criticism.

[ewerk 30221]

Exactly. The Tories have fucked up all over the shop and Corbyn hasn't capitalised at all. Despite your graph I would say he's as likely to win a GE as Miliband was.

[Renton 21231]

My arguments of 7 months ago are unchanged and increasingly vindicated, imo of course. Not sure what particular racist campaign you mean but I think you're blinkered if you think the press have let the tories off, Cameron in particular. Its just labour have been unable to capitalise on this, which is completely unacceptable.

[NJS 4365]

My arguments of 7 months ago are unchanged and increasingly vindicated, imo of course. Not sure what particular racist campaign you mean but I think you're blinkered if you think the press have let the tories off, Cameron in particular. Its just labour have been unable to capitalise on this, which is completely unacceptable.

Goldmith's campaign for London mayor.

 

Straight out of the Lyntom Crosby playbook - targetted leaflets to HIndus and Sikhs and anti-muslim fear bollocks - of course the "extremist" friend of Khan turned out to be a Tory.

[Rayvin 5164]

Exactly. The Tories have fucked up all over the shop and Corbyn hasn't capitalised at all. Despite your graph I would say he's as likely to win a GE as Miliband was.

But the alternative to this is that we compromise and win the GE by posing as the fucking Tories. This, despite the bizarre assertions from some on here that Labour would offer one thing (right wing/centrist policies) and then do another thing (left wing policies), is not an improvent on the status quo - largely because that latter view is utter bollocks, assuming that Labour have more than a single term in power planned.

 

I am not going to vote for shit I don't believe in, and I will not, without caveat, be persuaded to do anything otherwise. Labour is either going to get its fucking shit together and act as a unified party behind Corbyn without the constant bitching, or its going to force him out and I'll probably never vote for them again.

 

I'm just one person, but I'll not be alone. This farce about his leadership is fucking mental, all coming from people in the 'centre' of the party, and is literally doing the work of the Tories for them.

 

If we all unified, actually took the challenge to the Tories, and then lost - fine. It didn't work. Get rid of Corbyn now though, in the way it's trying to, and Labour risks losing the young people that it will be increasingly the basis for its support going forward.

 

In a nut shell, these MPs who keep railing against him need to shut the fuck up and get in line behind the party. The infighting is quite possibly the biggest issue putting the neutrals off, and it won't stop with Corbyn being replaced (it'll just flip the sides, but with the membership attacking MPs rather than MPs attacking the membership).

[Kid Dynamite 6985]

My arguments of 7 months ago are unchanged and increasingly vindicated, imo of course. Not sure what particular racist campaign you mean but I think you're blinkered if you think the press have let the tories off, Cameron in particular. Its just labour have been unable to capitalise on this, which is completely unacceptable.

How can you have missed Goldsmith's campaign? Calling your rival, a human rights lawyer, a terrorist sympathiser ffs

[Christmas Tree 4679]

But the alternative to this is that we compromise and win the GE by posing as the fucking Tories. This, despite the bizarre assertions from some on here that Labour would offer one thing (right wing/centrist policies) and then do another thing (left wing policies), is not an improvent on the status quo - largely because that latter view is utter bollocks, assuming that Labour have more than a single term in power planned.

 

I am not going to vote for shit I don't believe in, and I will not, without caveat, be persuaded to do anything otherwise. Labour is either going to get its fucking shit together and act as a unified party behind Corbyn without the constant bitching, or its going to force him out and I'll probably never vote for them again.

 

I'm just one person, but I'll not be alone. This farce about his leadership is fucking mental, all coming from people in the 'centre' of the party, and is literally doing the work of the Tories for them.

 

If we all unified, actually took the challenge to the Tories, and then lost - fine. It didn't work. Get rid of Corbyn now though, in the way it's trying to, and Labour risks losing the young people that it will be increasingly the basis for its support going forward.

 

In a nut shell, these MPs who keep railing against him need to shut the fuck up and get in line behind the party. The infighting is quite possibly the biggest issue putting the neutrals off, and it won't stop with Corbyn being replaced (it'll just flip the sides, but with the membership attacking MPs rather than MPs attacking the membership).

 

I think the problem is most Labour MP's and electorate know that you can't run a country from a far left position. The policies just overall never stack up. Unfortunately big business / job creation needs to come first to pay for all the nice stuff any government wants to do.

 

Without being patronising (honestly), I think it's the younger base, who don't quite grasp that, is where he gets his support.

[Renton 21231]

But the alternative to this is that we compromise and win the GE by posing as the fucking Tories. This, despite the bizarre assertions from some on here that Labour would offer one thing (right wing/centrist policies) and then do another thing (left wing policies), is not an improvent on the status quo - largely because that latter view is utter bollocks, assuming that Labour have more than a single term in power planned.

 

I am not going to vote for shit I don't believe in, and I will not, without caveat, be persuaded to do anything otherwise. Labour is either going to get its fucking shit together and act as a unified party behind Corbyn without the constant bitching, or its going to force him out and I'll probably never vote for them again.

 

I'm just one person, but I'll not be alone. This farce about his leadership is fucking mental, all coming from people in the 'centre' of the party, and is literally doing the work of the Tories for them.

 

If we all unified, actually took the challenge to the Tories, and then lost - fine. It didn't work. Get rid of Corbyn now though, in the way it's trying to, and Labour risks losing the young people that it will be increasingly the basis for its support going forward.

 

In a nut shell, these MPs who keep railing against him need to shut the fuck up and get in line behind the party. The infighting is quite possibly the biggest issue putting the neutrals off, and it won't stop with Corbyn being replaced (it'll just flip the sides, but with the membership attacking MPs rather than MPs attacking the membership).

And yet again you're suggesting if you're not a far left socialist, you're a tory or a "tory lite". Like its some kind of rigid dichotomy. Maybe it's just me, but I actually liked this country during the Blair years and supported his policies with some notable exceptions (the Iraq war being the most obvious). The country prospered and certainly felt a lot fairer than now.

 

You're too young to remember Foot, he was 10 times the leader Corbyn is but otherwise was of similar beliefs. He was an abject failure in opposition and set us up for a generation of thatcherism. It took a much more centrist approach to break this, like it or not that's the reality of the situation, most people simply won't support Corbyn's policies. History does repeat itself.

[Gemmill 44261]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/06/jeremy-corbyn-leadership-labour-mps-elections

 

Another couple of brave Labour MPs undermining their party. This is what's killing Labour, not Corbyn. Snakey little cunts who can't respect a democratic process. The tories don't have to do anything but sit back and watch.

[Gemmill 44261]

I think the problem is most Labour MP's and electorate know that you can't run a country from a far left position. The policies just overall never stack up. Unfortunately big business / job creation needs to come first to pay for all the nice stuff any government wants to do.

 

Without being patronising (honestly), I think it's the younger base, who don't quite grasp that, is where he gets his support.

No one is going to take political advice from a turkey that votes for Christmas every opportunity he gets. Not to be patronising.

[Rayvin 5164]

And yet again you're suggesting if you're not a far left socialist, you're a tory or a "tory lite". Like its some kind of rigid dichotomy. Maybe it's just me, but I actually liked this country during the Blair years and supported his policies with some notable exceptions (the Iraq war being the most obvious). The country prospered and certainly felt a lot fairer than now.

 

You're too young to remember Foot, he was 10 times the leader Corbyn is but otherwise was of similar beliefs. He was an abject failure in opposition and set us up for a generation of thatcherism. It took a much more centrist approach to break this, like it or not that's the reality of the situation, most people simply won't support Corbyn's policies. History does repeat itself.

I didn't say anything whatsoever about far left socialism or Tory lite. Corbyn isn't a far left socialist for one thing.

 

My point was that it is the blairites who are causing this farce, not Corbyn. You and I seem to agree that the Tories are bad for the country, but people with your view are the ones undermining Labour's effort to get into power. If Labour was unified and failed, I could accept that. The current backstabbing and general nonsense going on makes me want to resist the blairites who, for the record, I previously supported.

 

I also thought Tony Blair was a good leader, at the time. Looking at his legacy though, it's hard to argue that he did in fact make the country fairer, especially given how New Labour collapsed when he left.

 

New Labour is dead, there's no one to get behind in it anymore, and those left look like nothing more than traitors at the moment because of this carry on about Corbyn.

 

If the guy fails, he fails - but if he fails because rebel MPs knife him in the back, there will be negative consequences for Labour from the membership. How could any of us who voted for Corbyn come to trust the party again after that?

[Rayvin 5164]

I think the problem is most Labour MP's and electorate know that you can't run a country from a far left position. The policies just overall never stack up. Unfortunately big business / job creation needs to come first to pay for all the nice stuff any government wants to do.

 

Without being patronising (honestly), I think it's the younger base, who don't quite grasp that, is where he gets his support.

But when did Keynesian economics, something the county used for decades before the financial crisis, become 'far left economic policy'? This is the bit that doesn't make sense to me at all. I do get what you're saying but it's hard to reconcile it with the facts IMO. Edited May 7, 2016 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5164]

Another one on that last point, austerity doesn't even support big business or job creation... It supports the government balancing it's books in the short term and very little else. Big business and job creation both benefit from greater spending from governments.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

And yet again you're suggesting if you're not a far left socialist, you're a tory or a "tory lite". Like its some kind of rigid dichotomy. Maybe it's just me, but I actually liked this country during the Blair years and supported his policies with some notable exceptions (the Iraq war being the most obvious). The country prospered and certainly felt a lot fairer than now.

 

You're too young to remember Foot, he was 10 times the leader Corbyn is but otherwise was of similar beliefs. He was an abject failure in opposition and set us up for a generation of thatcherism. It took a much more centrist approach to break this, like it or not that's the reality of the situation, most people simply won't support Corbyn's policies. History does repeat itself.

Blair was quite lucky as he inherited a growing economy and enjoyed a sustained period of global economic good fortune.

 

Had a Blair government took over in 2010 I don't think you would have noticed a great deal of difference. Some, but not a lot.

[Renton 21231]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/06/jeremy-corbyn-leadership-labour-mps-elections

 

Another couple of brave Labour MPs undermining their party. This is what's killing Labour, not Corbyn. Snakey little cunts who can't respect a democratic process. The tories don't have to do anything but sit back and watch.

They're honest and if anything generous to Corbyn if anything. If his own nominators no he's unelectable that should tell you something.

[Renton 21231]

I didn't say anything whatsoever about far left socialism or Tory lite. Corbyn isn't a far left socialist for one thing.

 

My point was that it is the blairites who are causing this farce, not Corbyn. You and I seem to agree that the Tories are bad for the country, but people with your view are the ones undermining Labour's effort to get into power. If Labour was unified and failed, I could accept that. The current backstabbing and general nonsense going on makes me want to resist the blairites who, for the record, I previously supported.

 

I also thought Tony Blair was a good leader, at the time. Looking at his legacy though, it's hard to argue that he did in fact make the country fairer, especially given how New Labour collapsed when he left.

 

New Labour is dead, there's no one to get behind in it anymore, and those left look like nothing more than traitors at the moment because of this carry on about Corbyn.

 

If the guy fails, he fails - but if he fails because rebel MPs knife him in the back, there will be negative consequences for Labour from the membership. How could any of us who voted for Corbyn come to trust the party again after that?

The perennial rebel is being undermined by rebels, how ironic.

 

There are nowhere near enough people who think like you though Rayvin, that's the point. You might vote for Corbyn, but I won't. And there are more of me than you. Thursday showed this.

[Happy Face 29]

[Howmanheyman 32713]

The perennial rebel is being undermined by rebels, how ironic.

 

There are nowhere near enough people who think like you though Rayvin, that's the point. You might vote for Corbyn, but I won't. And there are more of me than you. Thursday showed this.

Who are you going to vote for, then?