Politics

[Renton 21626]

The stitch up was, it was going to be their choice rather than ours.

 

You don't want referendum and you don't want democracy maybe you should give North Korea a go

Oooh, it's a hypothetical stitch up that never happened?

 

So you think democracy is about giving the public referenda on every issue that effects them? And if I disagree I'm somehow Kim Jong-un?

Fuck me CT, if this is the standard of your debate then count me out.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Renton

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Oooh, it's a hypothetical stitch up that never happened?

 

So you think democracy is about giving the public referenda on every issue that effects them? And if I disagree I'm somehow Kim Jong-un?

Fuck me CT, if this is the standard of your debate BoW count me out.

Nice straw man

 

Nobody mentioned "on every issue", but the Europe we have today is not what the British public voted for.

 

The other point stands. You don't want a referendum yet you also don't want the democratically elected government to decide.

 

Silly stuff.

[Renton 21626]

howay man, your just getting me to type for the sake of it.

 

The HRA became law in the UK in 1998 by Blair.

 

Examples.

 

A right to life

 

Think we managed ok on this prior to 1998.

Can you expand rather than just saying "a right for life" (whatever that means) is a problem? See, I am coming from a level of ignorance here, what is wrong with having enshrined human rights? Seems like a good idea to me.

[NJS 4386]

Just reading withdrawing from ECHR negates the Good Friday agreement and the Scottish parliament act.

[Makom 0]

The electorate have had their chance to vote against the EU in every recent general election - they could have voted for UKIP recently, and the Referendum Party before that. The EU is what it is today because successive UK governments have rubber stamped its various growth stages. David Cameron is the first politician to say he's going to do something about that and give us a say on the exact issue, which is why the referendum will take place, because that's not a 'promise' the electorate will either forgive or forget if it's broken. And IIRC the wording of the referendum has already been mooted, and if it hasn't, it's not clear how it could be worded in a way that doesn't allow people to vote the UK out, if that's what they want to do.

[Renton 21626]

Nice straw man

 

Nobody mentioned "on every issue", but the Europe we have today is not what the British public voted for.

 

The other point stands. You don't want a referendum yet you also don't want the democratically elected government to decide.

 

Silly stuff.

You accused me of wanting to live in North Korea yet I'm making strawman arguments?

I DO want the democratically elected government to implement their policy you fool. The conservatives haven't bribed their voters with the illusion they can make the choice themselves. It's idiocy and simply can't be allowed to happen.

 

Silly stuff.

[JJ 0]

The next 5 years of UKIP is hard to predict. Assuming Cameron doesn't balls up the EU Referendum (in that he for once actually keeps a promise) an Out vote ends UKIP's relevance and is the death of them. An In vote however might have, as mentioned before, an SNP-esque effect on them. They are nicely poised with all their second place finishes to get a fuckload of seats in 2020 if the referendum happens and we vote to stay In.

 

Of course, a lot depends on what they do as a party between now and them. All their self-destructive behaviour hasn't dented their support so far. If they do end up with a new leader (I still think Farage will run for leader again and win, for what that's worth) then there's a good chance they could end up on the downward spiral anyway regardless.

 

It's tough to see what the future holds for them. The rise of the SNP I don't think is reactionary or temporary either, so I think it would be extremely foolish to assume that UKIP have peaked.

[Makom 0]

The referendum campaign will actually seal the fate of UKIP - since it will be the first time anyone critically examines where they get their figures from. The tragedy of UKIP is that most of them are already MEPs, so you would assume they would actually have some knowledge of what it actually does, but they clearly don't based on the bullshit they were propogating in the election campaign.

 

That's not to say there isn't a credible case to be made that what we get out of the EU isn't worth the money we put in, but it's guaranteed that UKIP on its own won't to be able to make it well enough to persuade 50%+1 voters to buy it. The more likely outcome is they will undermine the case by having their nonsense exposed for the fag-packet economics that it really is, handing victory to the Europhiles.

[JJ 0]

The referendum campaign will actually seal the fate of UKIP - since it will be the first time anyone critically examines where they get their figures from. The tragedy of UKIP is that most of them are already MEPs, so you would assume they would actually have some knowledge of what it actually does, but they clearly don't based on the bullshit they were propogating in the election campaign.

 

That's not to say there isn't a credible case to be made that what we get out of the EU isn't worth the money we put in, but it's guaranteed that UKIP on its own won't to be able to make it well enough to persuade 50%+1 voters to buy it. The more likely outcome is they will undermine the case by having their nonsense exposed for the fag-packet economics that it really is, handing victory to the Europhiles.

I do tend to agree with this actually. It's very possible the scrutiny of their figures around the EU is a possible downfall.

[Andrew 4748]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/george-galloway-to-mount-legal-challenge-over-election-defeat

 

 

“But there will be others who are already celebrating: the venal, the vile, the racists and the Zionists will all be celebrating. The hyena can bounce on the lion’s grave but it can never be a lion and in any case, I’m not in my grave. As a matter of fact, I’m going off now to plan the next campaign.”

 

Just missing a "You will rue this day! I shall have my vengeance!"

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/george-galloway-to-mount-legal-challenge-over-election-defeat

 

 

 

Just missing a "You will rue this day! I shall have my vengeance!"

 

The man is a disgrace to humanity.

[Gemmill 44882]

Typical Scotsman.

[ChezGiven 0]

Anyway, now the dust is settling, i blame Dimpleboy and his ilk for the Labour defeat.

 

Labour lost seats in England because the UKIP vote split their supporters. There was a clear strategy from the Tories to drive the Labour vote in marginals to UKIP. If you voted UKIP in a marginal or an old labour seat, its more likely you were subject to Tory propaganda and tactics than UKIP pulling you in. The UKIP vote came from disenfranchised working class who bought the right-wing press angle on Miliband and the UKIP view on the economy.

 

The fact that the UKIP view on the economy casts the last 30 years of de-industrialisation and the Great Recession due to immigration and this message held firm to generate 4m votes, is one of the most retarded / backward democratic expressions anywhere in Europe.

[ChezGiven 0]

The chat in here about UKIP is totally incorrect too. Whatever the result of the referendum, UKIP will persist as a political threat to the left unless they come up with something that addresses the mistakes of the last 2 (to 5) years.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

The chat in here about UKIP is totally incorrect too. Whatever the result of the referendum, UKIP will persist as a political threat to the left unless they come up with something that addresses the mistakes of the last 2 (to 5) years.

Not all the chat then

[ChezGiven 0]

Over the last 5 years, the Sun, Mail, Express have given strong credence to the UKIP position on Europe. I dont where the press agenda comes from though, it could be a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

 

The Tories influences are split between EU-in from business and EU-out from the press. Its why the press have supported UKIP as they push the EU-out agenda in the Tory party.

 

Why does the Sun, Mail, Express etc give credence to UKIP's ideas? (they may still ridicule the people but the notions behind UKIP are strongly reflected in their editorial).

 

Is it because they think this is what resonates with their readers and at the heart of Britain in both left and right camps, there is the islander mentality that wants to remain by itself? Or are there vested interests in the right-wing press that hold that political view? (certainly at the Express).

 

All this will play out with the EU referendum.

 

I was with a french mate who works in investment banking on saturday and his simple view was 'its all fucked from here on in'.

[Gemmill 44882]

Anyway, now the dust is settling, i blame Dimpleboy and his ilk for the Labour defeat.

 

Labour lost seats in England because the UKIP vote split their supporters. There was a clear strategy from the Tories to drive the Labour vote in marginals to UKIP. If you voted UKIP in a marginal or an old labour seat, its more likely you were subject to Tory propaganda and tactics than UKIP pulling you in. The UKIP vote came from disenfranchised working class who bought the right-wing press angle on Miliband and the UKIP view on the economy.

 

The fact that the UKIP view on the economy casts the last 30 years of de-industrialisation and the Great Recession due to immigration and this message held firm to generate 4m votes, is one of the most retarded / backward democratic expressions anywhere in Europe.

 

I've been trying to find an article written by one of the blokes responsible for the exit poll, and one of the things they based the poll outcome on was the disproportionate movement from Labour to UKIP as opposed to Tory to UKIP, but I can't find it any more. It was a decent read, but aye it basically supports your argument that Dimpleboy carried Cameron over the threshold, kissed him full on the mouth and took him straight up to the bedroom.

[Gemmill 44882]

Over the last 5 years, the Sun, Mail, Express have given strong credence to the UKIP position on Europe. I dont where the press agenda comes from though, it could be a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

 

The Tories influences are split between EU-in from business and EU-out from the press. Its why the press have supported UKIP as they push the EU-out agenda in the Tory party.

 

Why does the Sun, Mail, Express etc give credence to UKIP's ideas? (they may still ridicule the people but the notions behind UKIP are strongly reflected in their editorial).

 

Is it because they think this is what resonates with their readers and at the heart of Britain in both left and right camps, there is the islander mentality that wants to remain by itself? Or are there vested interests in the right-wing press that hold that political view? (certainly at the Express).

 

All this will play out with the EU referendum.

 

I was with a french mate who works in investment banking on saturday and his simple view was 'its all fucked from here on in'.

 

Black red wine stained teeth and lips, tab inexplicably clinging to his bottom lip as he talks....."Ah tell you Chez.....eet eez all ferked from 'ere on een."

[ChezGiven 0]

He's Moroccan descent so the accent is a bit off but aye basically Which i have to mention was a surprise. As him and his wife are Muslims we thought there would be 'nae bevvy' (as i kept saying to a blank face all afternoon).

 

Turns out he likes a drink or two. Felt a right mug for taking flowers for his lass and not a bottle. You want to really be part of Europe? Its no walk in the park i can tell you. UKIP might have a point tbf.

[Park Life 71]

 

I've been trying to find an article written by one of the blokes responsible for the exit poll, and one of the things they based the poll outcome on was the disproportionate movement from Labour to UKIP as opposed to Tory to UKIP, but I can't find it any more. It was a decent read, but aye it basically supports your argument that Dimpleboy carried Cameron over the threshold, kissed him full on the mouth and took him straight up to the bedroom.

There's no mystery here at all. The old fraternal working class doesn't exist any longer or not in large enough amounts to carry old Labour ideas. UKIP was set up to pull the Tories to the right (not just on immigration/EU) but also hoover up working class votes where there was issues with poverty and jobs that might be blamed on immigration. The political and financial elite in the UK is divided on the EU. The financial elites paranoia is the move away from London to Frankfurt and the political elites fear is soft left EU legislation that impinges on their lawn (human rights, workers rights, etc..) I'd say 70% of the MP's want to stay in the EU but only 50% in the Tory party.

 

nb I don't believe that this situation can't be rectified by Labour however because people can be steered on what to think over time and even who they are. The Tories have know this since the Thatcher days.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Park Life

[Gemmill 44882]

Here you go, I found that blog post cos I'm a great bloke:

 

http://electionsetc.com/2015/05/08/how-did-the-tories-win-a-majority/

[Gemmill 44882]

It reads like it was written by a bloke who hasn't slept in 36 hours btw.

[Park Life 71]

To cut through all the analysis the English are basically self-serving cunts and traditionally soft right. The Lib Dems ran back to the Tories thus doubling the effect.

[Alex 35083]

To cut through all the analysis the English are basically self-serving cunts and traditionally soft right. The Lib Dems ran back to the Tories thus doubling the effect.

Bet you're the proper black sheep of your family, supporting Labour. Have you come out to them yet?

[Park Life 71]

Bet you're the proper black sheep of your family, supporting Labour. Have you come out to them yet?

Everything goes through the Politburo. Mrs P is more left than me. Mum was UKIP.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Park Life