Politics

[spongebob toonpants 4003]

Politically what will be disastrous will be leaving people not feeling better of

Majority of people support rejoining already

[Renton 21666]

9 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I said it was glib. What's naive is thinking that anything other than radical action is going to prevent the downward path of the country.

And France for all its problems has a retirement age of 62/64 and pays a more than 50% higher state pension

 

 

Absolutely. At least there's a good reason for them being fucked, at least normal people have benefitted. But its not affordable now. So you get Barnier in, and his choice is either economic collapse or (relative) enforced austerity and pension age significantly increasing. The French may well end up choosing Le Pen and the former. How will thate end up do you think? 

A big problem now I think is most the previous major players, the UK, Germany, France, Japan, are peripheral at best now and dwarfed by the US and China. Against that context, what do we do? Join a union is the obvious answer but honestly, the EU is looking weaker than ever and closer integration is not happening any time soon. If France defaults, it may be game over. 

[spongebob toonpants 4003]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Absolutely. At least there's a good reason for them being fucked, at least normal people have benefitted. But its not affordable now. So you get Barnier in, and his choice is either economic collapse or (relative) enforced austerity and pension age significantly increasing. The French may well end up choosing Le Pen and the former. How will thate end up do you think? 

A big problem now I think is most the previous major players, the UK, Germany, France, Japan, are peripheral at best now and dwarfed by the US and China. Against that context, what do we do? Join a union is the obvious answer but honestly, the EU is looking weaker than ever and closer integration is not happening any time soon. If France defaults, it may be game over. 

Europe is the only hope, better for them and better for us, its still a powerful trading block.

Sadly it's not happening under this lot

[Renton 21666]

2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Europe is the only hope, better for them and better for us, its still a powerful trading block.

Sadly it's not happening under this lot

 

I'm as pro-European as anyone on this board. I had the EU flag in my profile before Rayvin joined. I always wanted full membership, the euro, and ultimately federalisation.

But there is what I want, and there is reality. 

Look at the EU now and its constituent countries. Le Pen on the verge of becoming French Leader. A fascist in charge of Italy. AfD in Germany, with the powerhouse of Europe witnessing its industry collapse. Victor Orban. Right wing and nationalist parties rising everywhere in the continent, against a back drop of Trump and Putin. Theres's one hell of a lot wrong in Europe currently and for once the UK and its leader are not the issue here. 

[Rayvin 5232]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm as pro-European as anyone on this board. I had the EU flag in my profile before Rayvin joined. I always wanted full membership, the euro, and ultimately federalisation.

But there is what I want, and there is reality. 

Look at the EU now and its constituent countries. Le Pen on the verge of becoming French Leader. A fascist in charge of Italy. AfD in Germany, with the powerhouse of Europe witnessing its industry collapse. Victor Orban. Right wing and nationalist parties rising everywhere in the continent, against a back drop of Trump and Putin. Theres's one hell of a lot wrong in Europe currently and for once the UK and its leader are not the issue here. 

 

I go back to this notion that the West needs to wake up to the fact that Russia declared war on us 10 years ago - I still recall PL posting that Cadwalladr tweet that said as much and it was an eye opening moment for me. A lot of the problems we are now seeing can be traced back to Putin (though I suspect it's now taken on a life of its own, sadly).

[Renton 21666]

15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I go back to this notion that the West needs to wake up to the fact that Russia declared war on us 10 years ago - I still recall PL posting that Cadwalladr tweet that said as much and it was an eye opening moment for me. A lot of the problems we are now seeing can be traced back to Putin (though I suspect it's now taken on a life of its own, sadly).

 

Aye. Being a massive pedant, they went to war with us a decade ago, and we didn't realise or wake up in time. That was a colossal failure of normative politics in many countries. I wish they had declared it. Amazing how much damage this little insecure prick from St Petersburg has done to Western Europe, the US, and his own country in the time since. 

[Gemmill 45024]

https://iandunt.substack.com/p/assisted-dying-triumph-for-reformers?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1833442&post_id=152325857&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=172gw&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

 

[Kid Dynamite 7036]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

https://iandunt.substack.com/p/assisted-dying-triumph-for-reformers?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1833442&post_id=152325857&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=172gw&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

 

275 dickheads voting against it. There's not a single credible reason why this shouldn't be passed. And if the god squad disagree with it then they can opt out, the same way people can with abortions. 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3910]

2 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

275 dickheads voting against it. There's not a single credible reason why this shouldn't be passed. And if the god squad disagree with it then they can opt out, the same way people can with abortions. 

Have you seen Liz Carr’s documentary about it? She’s an Atheist btw.

[strawb 4277]

Having sat with my dad at home while he died of bowel cancer, and we couldn’t get help from a macmillan nurse or a district nurse because they were too busy, giving him the legally allowed amount of morphine to help him sleep, having the medicine in the house that would have ended him but couldn’t legally give him it.
 

This is a fucking triumph, fuck everyone who voted against it. 
 

Sit with someone who is in immense pain with no way out and all they have to come is a painful and undignified death then come and talk to me. Cunts.

[Dr Gloom 21974]

This bill gives me hope we might still live in a progressive country after all 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3910]

11 minutes ago, strawb said:

Having sat with my dad at home while he died of bowel cancer, and we couldn’t get help from a macmillan nurse or a district nurse because they were too busy, giving him the legally allowed amount of morphine to help him sleep, having the medicine in the house that would have ended him but couldn’t legally give him it.
 

This is a fucking triumph, fuck everyone who voted against it. 
 

Sit with someone who is in immense pain with no way out and all they have to come is a painful and undignified death then come and talk to me. Cunts.

How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs

[Dr Gloom 21974]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs

why should suicide be illegal? Genuine question. Do you believe in free will, if a person is of sound mind?

 

we apparently live in a free country. Sovereignty of the individual is sacrosanct. The decision over when to check out is the ultimate freedom. Why is it the state’s business? Keeping people alive who would rather be dead and prolonging preventable suffering is also a massive drain on the nhs.

 

i am yet to see a cogent argument against assisted dying 

[Dr Gloom 21974]

My mother in law spent the last weeks of her life in intolerable pain. She wanted to die. The state wouldn’t not facilitate what she wanted. If we assisted her we would have committed a crime. I agree with Strawb. This bill is a triumph and has restored my faith in this country. Steamer’s first big win.

 

Brilliant piece by Dunt btw @Gemmill

Edited 4 hours ago by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21666]

32 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

How about we talk to the families of disabled people admitted into hospital and given a dnr notice on their notes without consultation. There are disabled people justifiably worried this is the beginning of a process which leads to people being urged to end their life. Kate Leadbetter the proposer of the bill thinks just feeling you’re a burden should qualify you to commit suicide https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ubM4mNLYTfs

 

So because there is a theoretical risk of coercion or because of the risk of "slippery slope" (a logical fallacy in itself) others should suffer a tortured undignified death, or be forced into suicide, alone? 

None of the arguments against assisted death stack up for me. It's all about others wanting control over your life, and death. Taking away your bodily autonomy. And 90% of the time this boils down to religion, with people desperately trying to hide this using a range of fallacious logical arguments that wouldn't be out of place in sixth form. 

 

My body, my mind, my choice thanks, end of. 

Also, nice to see parliament debate this respectfully and reach the right conclusion.