Politics

[Alex 35100]

I like Benn but he’s another one who lost the plot with his anti-establishment Brexit bollocks 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Alex

[Renton 21640]

8 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I respect the view but there will never be a 'dealing with the replacement's weaknesses' moment. I'm done compromising for this shit, I'm too old for the fantasy that there is ever going to be a moment when it will be 'agreeable' for an actually productive discussion on how to help this country move forward. Every time we concede, Labour go to the right. Austerity, Brexit, the lot.

 

I'm not conceding anymore, Starmer is going to have to bring his ass back this way if he wants my vote. I'm not being complicit in this slow motion car crash anymore.

 

There's nothing wrong with voting against something, maximising the chances the tories are voted out of power or even (hopefully) obliterated. Get rid of them and then the constant pull to the right might be tempered. They'll either position themselves more centrally or become more extreme and become an irrelevance. Insinuations that Streeting is anywhere near the same leval as Sunak or Braverman are frankly insulting. The tories will have us out the ECHR if they won another election. Let that sink in what it would do to the the World and our children for generations. You should fight against that. Your choice. though. 

[wykikitoon 20210]

19 hours ago, Renton said:

Moving on to Braverman's quasi-fascism today, this thread sums up why she her rhetoric is entirely meaningless in terms of actually improving things. Worth a very quick read. 

 

 

Passed that onto the family WhatsApp group so a few CUNTS can read it.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

TBF even the Lib Dems aren't committing to rejoining the EU. It's simply off the table for the forseeable.

 

It's not even just about that anymore though, as much as that is my historic line in sand. In general there are no solutions and nothing to actually vote "for" from Labour. Just things to vote to avoid from the Tories.

 

Mind you when the time comes my ballot paper will simply say "Rejoin the EU".

[Rayvin 5223]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

There's nothing wrong with voting against something, maximising the chances the tories are voted out of power or even (hopefully) obliterated. Get rid of them and then the constant pull to the right might be tempered. They'll either position themselves more centrally or become more extreme and become an irrelevance. Insinuations that Streeting is anywhere near the same leval as Sunak or Braverman are frankly insulting. The tories will have us out the ECHR if they won another election. Let that sink in what it would do to the the World and our children for generations. You should fight against that. Your choice. though. 

 

I just disagree with your premise that voting for a right leaning Labour government is the path to a left leaning political agenda across the board. And if I can't get on board with that concept, I'm not sure anything else you've said is relevant.

[ewerk 30645]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

Mind you when the time comes my ballot paper will simply say "Rejoin the EU".

 

And everyone in the polling station cheered!  

 

I think it's best to wait until the election before judging them, my feeling is that they're keeping their powder dry until the manifesto is launched.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

And everyone in the polling station cheered!  

 

I think it's best to wait until the election before judging them, my feeling is that they're keeping their powder dry until the manifesto is launched.

 

I'll keep an open mind but Labour are meant to be the reason to be hopeful and more than any other political force in UK politics are the ones who make me despair.

[Renton 21640]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

It's not even just about that anymore though, as much as that is my historic line in sand. In general there are no solutions and nothing to actually vote "for" from Labour. Just things to vote to avoid from the Tories.

 

Mind you when the time comes my ballot paper will simply say "Rejoin the EU".

 

I think Labour will not commit to anything or advertise many new policies until the GE is announced and the manifesto is out. Maybe judge them then. Any policy they release now, the tory's either get their MSM hench men on the case or they just steal - see Phillipson's childcare plans as a recent example. There will definitely be a closer relationship with the EU and harmonisation of standards under Labour, steps in the right direction and more importantly a change in narrative. Talk of being an assoicate member is music to my ears. This may well eventually end up with us rejoining in a couple of decades or so. The EU have zero interest in us rejoining currently though and their focus will be on Eastern Europe, you can't blame them. The alternative that you would allow for by default is much, much worse. I think in politics their are two types of people. Idealists/people with conviction and realists/pragmatists. I became the latter in my early 20s. It's way more productive. You seem stuck on being the former. That's fair enough, but can be counterproductive. 

[Rayvin 5223]

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I think Labour will not commit to anything or advertise many new policies until the GE is announced and the manifesto is out. Maybe judge them then. Any policy they release now, the tory's either get their MSM hench men on the case or they just steal - see Phillipson's childcare plans as a recent example. There will definitely be a closer relationship with the EU and harmonisation of standards under Labour, steps in the right direction and more importantly a change in narrative. Talk of being an assoicate member is music to my ears. This may well eventually end up with us rejoining in a couple of decades or so. The EU have zero interest in us rejoining currently though and their focus will be on Eastern Europe, you can't blame them. The alternative that you would allow for by default is much, much worse. I think in politics their are two types of people. Idealists/people with conviction and realists/pragmatists. I became the latter in my early 20s. It's way more productive. You seem stuck on being the former. That's fair enough, but can be counterproductive. 

 

Well you let me know when you think your productive stance of voting for Labour as it moves away from the Scandinavian mixed socialist economic set up you claim to want is going to bear fruit then.

 

I suspect Brexit comes good before we get to that.

[Renton 21640]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Well you let me know when you think your productive stance of voting for Labour as it moves away from the Scandinavian mixed socialist economic set up you claim to want is going to bear fruit then.

 

I suspect Brexit comes good before we get to that.

 

Sorry, you've lost me, how does it move us further away? Genuinely don't understand, you think the tories winning will lead us closer compared with Labour? I doubt this personally. 

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Sorry, you've lost me, how does it move us further away? Genuinely don't understand, you think the tories winning will lead us closer compared with Labour? I doubt this personally. 

 

 

 

I think permitting Labour to move to the right by giving them our left leaning votes just because we are scared of the Tories takes us overall further away from anything you claim to want.

 

Labour would beat the Tories here with a far more progressive agenda than it has the balls to go for, it is a huge wasted opportunity.

 

This is not productive or pragmatic, it's fearful and the result of being conditioned to believe we can't win. It moves us further away than ever because not only do we need British politics in general to move left to achieve it, we need Labour to do so as well. And Labour  I guarantee you, isn't going to turn around next time out and claim that since we won this time we can afford to be a bit more ambitious next time. They will take victory this time as an endorsement of their soft right leanings, and will double down on it as proof that they were right. This proof will be that people who lean left voted for them anyway.

 

I'm not going to be part of that unprincipled mess, I'm sorry.

[Renton 21640]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

And Labour  I guarantee you, isn't going to turn around next time out and claim that since we won this time we can afford to be a bit more ambitious next time

 

Well, for what its worth with my limited contact these days with party members and inferences I can take from political media, thisis exactly their plan. You certainly cannot guarantee it isn't. It's what happened last time they were in power too where they did a lot of good in the later parliaments. 

We are where we are. You can speculate all you like about hypothetical future policies, but I am sure every person on this board is in agreement they will be better than we currently have, NOW. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Well, for what its worth with my limited contact these days with party members and inferences I can take from political media, thisis exactly their plan. You certainly cannot guarantee it isn't. It's what happened last time they were in power too where they did a lot of good in the later parliaments. 

We are where we are. You can speculate all you like about hypothetical future policies, but I am sure every person on this board is in agreement they will be better than we currently have, NOW. 

 

I'll vote for them when they start offering it and not before. The u turns we have seen from Labour since Starmer took over destroyed any faith I had in them and I'm not going to reward them for it.

 

Just think about it for a moment though. If everyone in the country to the left of Labour voted for them here, why would they move any further left? Why wouldn't they just assume they were in the sweet spot? The more of us that don't vote for them, the more they have to move this way in some form to catch us.

 

You may be prepared to trust in the benevolence of our betters as they move us unerringly into that sweet Scandinavian utopia, but I am not. I am going to hold their feet to the fire.

[Renton 21640]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'll vote for them when they start offering it and not before. The u turns we have seen from Labour since Starmer took over destroyed any faith I had in them and I'm not going to reward them for it.

 

Just think about it for a moment though. If everyone in the country to the left of Labour voted for them here, why would they move any further left? Why wouldn't they just assume they were in the sweet spot? The more of us that don't vote for them, the more they have to move this way in some form to catch us.

 

You may be prepared to trust in the benevolence of our betters as they move us unerringly into that sweet Scandinavian utopia, but I am not. I am going to hold their feet to the fire.

 

More hypotheticals, convoluted reasoning. A balanced parliament (apparently we're not supposed to say "hung" anymore) would suit me fine from the PR perspective. I would enjoy complete tory annihilation more though, watch that grin come off Rees Mogg's smug face. It would be a good sign for the health of this country and its sanity.

I alos know Starmer's biography, I know about Phillipson, I know the background to a lot of the Labour front bench. I actually am not as cynical about you and believe that these people want to do good, just as much as Corbyn did. I'm willing to give them a chance. 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

More hypotheticals, convoluted reasoning. A balanced parliament (apparently we're not supposed to say "hung" anymore) would suit me fine from the PR perspective. I would enjoy complete tory annihilation more though, watch that grin come off Rees Mogg's smug face. It would be a good sign for the health of this country and its sanity.

I alos know Starmer's biography, I know about Phillipson, I know the background to a lot of the Labour front bench. I actually am not as cynical about you and believe that these people want to do good, just as much as Corbyn did. I'm willing to give them a chance. 

 

So mine is convoluted and hypothetical but yours is stone cold fact huh? Labour will move left after having gone right this time, and everything you claim will come true. I see.

 

I'm going to leave it here, I shouldn't even have entertained this.

[Monkeys Fist 42465]

55 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'll keep an open mind but Labour are meant to be the reason to be hopeful and more than any other political force in UK politics are the ones who make me despair.

More than the Tories? 

[Renton 21640]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So mine is convoluted and hypothetical but yours is stone cold fact huh? Labour will move left after having gone right this time, and everything you claim will come true. I see.

 

I'm going to leave it here, I shouldn't even have entertained this.

 

Complete strawman. I never said mine was a stone cold fact, although at least I offered some precedence. When Blair was elected in '97, very little was done in the first term but they became more progressive the longer they were in power and actually forced the tories to embrace more economic and social liberalism under Cameron. Leave the tories in power and things only go one way though. If that's not worth considering or discussing, fair enough. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Renton

[Rayvin 5223]

3 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

More than the Tories? 

 

Yes because the Tories aren't the ones I was relying on to fix this.

[Rayvin 5223]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

COmplete strawman. I never said mine was a stone cold fact, although at least I offered soem precedence. When Blair was elected in '97, very little was done in the first term but they became more progressive the longer they were in power and actually forced the tories to embrace more economic and social liberalism under Cameron. Leave the tories in power and things only go one way though. If that's not worth considering or discussing, fair enough. 

 

You have flip flopped all over this issue for years. You've condemned Starmer as firmly as I have on many occasions. You've thrown your hands up in despair at them.

 

You're wildly inconsistent on this.

 

I am not, and I'm sticking to my hypothetical version of things, while you go with yours. As we go through these conversations you throw in these sly little digs about my naivety (only you possess the maturity to see the one clear truth), or how convoluted my reasoning is (no explanation given, just stated) and then claim I'm dealing in hypotheticals one post before defending your own position as hypothetical too.

 

That is why I am done with this. Its the sneering I can't be fucked with.

 

I love ya man, but I'm done with this.

[Renton 21640]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You have flip flopped all over this issue for years. You've condemned Starmer as firmly as I have on many occasions. You've thrown your hands up in despair at them.

 

You're wildly inconsistent on this.

 

I am not, and I'm sticking to my hypothetical version of things, while you go with yours. As we go through these conversations you throw in these sly little digs about my naivety (only you possess the maturity to see the one clear truth), or how convoluted my reasoning is (no explanation given, just stated) and then claim I'm dealing in hypotheticals one post before defending your own position as hypothetical too.

 

That is why I am done with this. Its the sneering I can't be fucked with.

 

I love ya man, but I'm done with this.

 

I'm not sneering man, I'm not having digs. And you're absolutely right about my flip flopping, I do this all the time, not just about politics, but also football and more generally emotionally tbh. It's been a shit decade on a personal and broader level. I'll be slagging Starmer and co off again next week no doubt, then I'll calm down, Sunak/Braverman/anytorycunt will say something which incenses me, and back to the start we go. NUFC were coming second after Villa match and not top 10 after BHA. Etc. I Think I've always been consistent in that I will vote for the least worst option though, and that points only one way at the moment.

Love you too, take care, let's just somehow hope the future is better. 💓

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I'm not sneering man, I'm not having digs. And you're absolutely right about my flip flopping, I do this all the time, not just about politics, but also football and more generally emotionally tbh. It's been a shit decade on a personal and broader level. I'll be slagging Starmer and co off again next week no doubt, then I'll calm down, Sunak/Braverman/anytorycunt will say something which incenses me, and back to the start we go. NUFC were coming second after Villa match and not top 10 after BHA. Etc. I Think I've always been consistent in that I will vote for the least worst option though, and that points only one way at the moment.

Love you too, take care, let's just somehow hope the future is better. 💓

 

 

 

Shit decade on my end too tbf, I've run out of a lot of patience and goodwill so maybe I now can't see whatever it is that Labour might do if given half the chance as opposed to what they're having to claim they'll do to get their foot in the door.

 

I am so angry these days about the state of this country that I think weary, cynical resignation is all I have left.

 

Whether the future is better or not I'm sure we'll be on here bickering about it until the day we die  

[Gemmill 44967]

 

Is this little cunt on the latest series of this?

 

[Rayvin 5223]

Who are the two blokes interviewing him? Can we get them to do inquiries in parliament?

[Gemmill 44967]

He's claiming he broke his rib and hid it throughout filming. I'm hoping this is him getting his excuses in early for being permanently in tears.

[Monkeys Fist 42465]

Little bullshitter

Aren’t ribs attached to the spine? 

 

Can’t have one without the other.