Politics

[scoobos 297]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

What, your sister had polio? I didn't think I was old enough to potentially know a peer who had it. I just remember the gritty sugar cube they gave you and the plastic lad outside the shops with calippers on his legs and a slot on his head. 

I'd totally forgot about that sugar cube.. Why don't they do it now, is it in an injection or something, or (hope not) did we decide it wasn't needed anymore as we'd eradicated it?

 

[ewerk 30167]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You're the one who said you felt bad about making a personal attack. And what is it you hoped to do with the information about my profession if not use it in consideration of who I am and the impact any of it has on what I say?

 

I’ll give you one chance at honesty. Did you insinuate my wife was a prostitute on the Plymouth Herald comments section?

 

FYP

[Renton 21055]

2 minutes ago, scoobos said:

I'd totally forgot about that sugar cube.. Why don't they do it now, is it in an injection or something, or (hope not) did we decide it wasn't needed anymore as we'd eradicated it?

 

 

That was a live attrenuated virus vaccination, not completely risk free. Polio (inactivated) is now part of the childhood immunisation programme (DTaP/IPV) as a jab. The WHO got very close to completely erradicating polio like small pox but religion (in this case Islam in the Middle East) got in the way. Some parents don't partipate in the childhood vaccine programme so now it is a theoretical risk even here. The misery that disease inflicts (on a small minority of people) is unimaginable. 

[scoobos 297]

[Rayvin 5151]

2 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Writing "Does this better equip you to judge me?" is perfect British passive aggressiveness. Apologies if you feel judged making political debate and strong statements on an internet forum , with no body lanugage, tone of voice or facial expressions- it's going to happen. But I couldn't have put any more softening or caveats on that at all.

You are being overly defensive in my opinion and its a common theme, one which I apologised for in the past - perhaps wrongly, as there's little venom in anything I've written this past 24 hours. How else can we respond or debate if every challenge is rebutted with "people are idiots" and statements like "do what you want".

 

 

It's interesting, because I recall in our first debate, you accused me of putting words in your mouth when I called out something you had plainly written. You and I, for whatever unfortunate reason, do not seem able to engage well. I've tried to deal with that by not replying to you (for a time), or by standing back from things - and we have been having a perfectly reasonable discussion in the other thread. But you've just come over to this one and called me out in the middle of a separate discussion I was having, asked me what I do for a living and then more or less implied that I just sit and complain rather than doing any productive about anything I believe in.

 

I don't know really what it is you want from me but I would like to assure you and Renton both that I'm writing more with grim exasperation than anything on the edge of anger. You can judge me if you want, I simply wanted to hold up to you that I was aware of it.

 

I don't understand your last line btw - I haven't rebutted every challenge with 'people are idiots'. In fact in this thread, I'm sitting here protesting that people aren't idiots and can handle the truth (if delivered correctly and over a sustained period).

 

That said though, people are idiots.

[scoobos 297]

I never asked you what you did for a living. so there you go again putting words in my mouth. Jaysus. I asked what you were doing when you say people are doing nothing about the issues, or that protest, rally etc is pointless.. Not what you do for a living.

I'm not calling you out either. and whos being judging when you get all preachy about "trying not to engage with me" to deal with how terribly judgy I'm being, I'm responding to your posts and comments. Wow. just wow. I'll leave it there.

Edited June 22, 2022 by scoobos

[Renton 21055]

Well to clarify, I'm engaing in a friendly discussion with "cyber friends" and loafing when I should be working. No need for real conflict. 

 

[Rayvin 5151]

Just now, scoobos said:

I never asked you what you did for a living. so there you go again putting words in my mouth. Jaysus. I asked what you were doing when you say people are doing nothing about the issues, or that protest, rally etc is pointless.. Not what you do for a living.

I'm not calling you out either. and whos being judging when you get all preachy about "trying not to engage with me" to deal with how terrible I'm being. Wow. just wow. I'll leave it there.

 

If the first bit is true, and I can read it that way, then I apologise. I hope you can see from the apology that I was genuinely under a particular impression of what you had said when I responded.

 

On the latter bit - I didn't say you were terrible, I just avoided dialogue for a bit because I didn't like how that exchange ended. A personal choice - I have anxiety and make decisions to avoid getting myself worked up at times.

[scoobos 297]

I have CPTSD lets not have a "mental health" off eh? Seriously though, I'll leave it be.

Edited June 22, 2022 by scoobos

[Rayvin 5151]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Well to clarify, I'm engaing in a friendly discussion with "cyber friends" and loafing when I should be working. No need for real conflict. 

 

 

Believe it or not, I'm actually pretty chill about this - and I have genuinely no bad blood with anyone on any of this. I anticipate it will resolve and then we go on as normal.

[Rayvin 5151]

Just now, scoobos said:

I have CPTSD lets not have a "mental health" off eh?

 

I'm just explaining to you a factor in a decision I made, there's nothing further to it than that.

 

I'm happy to just leave this if you are.

[PaddockLad 16992]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

What I'm sat here wondering is how in the jaded, misanthropic nightmare of my perception of reality, I'm the one who is standing here with any hope.

 

Did not see that coming.

Trump lost the popular vote twice in the US. There’s always hope. However Gemmil is largely right about the tactics that Labour must use. The RW press will have to properly turn against not only  Johnson but the cabinet & Tory party in general though. That’s the key, making that happen. And only the tories can do that to themselves…if power is achieved with or without the LDs, then the new government can start introducing truth back into political life again…..Brexitism won’t go away though , just like Trumpism hasn’t…

Edited June 22, 2022 by PaddockLad

[Alex 34725]

50 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If something to be hopeful about becomes evident, I will be hopeful.

You want to fucking cheer up a bit, mate. You’ll be my age before you know it. I’ve seen less youthful angst in an episode of Dawson’s Creek 

[spongebob toonpants 3902]

I've got to admit that I'm finding it incredibly depressing that even on a "lefty" forum such as this the viewpoint that it's not even worth trying to win an argument about Europe or workers pay because the media won't allow it is so prevelant

[Alex 34725]

You can win those arguments when you’re in power and have demonstrably improved people’s standard of living 

[Renton 21055]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I've got to admit that I'm finding it incredibly depressing that even on a "lefty" forum such as this the viewpoint that it's not even worth trying to win an argument about Europe or workers pay because the media won't allow it is so prevelant

 

I don't see why. As you say, we're generally agreed on the objectives but not the methods. We all know the barriers Labour faces to get into power. But if that can be achieved, which will take intelligence and patience, they can do a lot of real good in 5 years, get re-elected, and start a legacy that will see me into old age and my kids into adulthood. That is the most I think can be practically done. 

[Renton 21055]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

You can win those arguments when you’re in power and have demonstrably improved people’s standard of living 

 

Or this. 

[Gemmill 44113]

4 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I've got to admit that I'm finding it incredibly depressing that even on a "lefty" forum such as this the viewpoint that it's not even worth trying to win an argument about Europe or workers pay because the media won't allow it is so prevelant

 

Look at just a couple of things that have happened recently. 

 

The local elections in which the Tories got fucking mauled and lost over 500 seats. And the prevailing view of all major news outlets was that it was not a great night for Johnson, but he could be pleased as it left Labour leader Starmer with a lot more questions than answers. Eh?! 

 

Then the confidence vote. 41% of his party vote against him, and members of the cabinet are immediately on twitter calling it a great victory which puts Partygate to bed, and allows us all to move on. And broadly speaking, that's what's happened. Never mind the fact that it was an absolutely terrible result for him, he just keeps on rolling and the press largely lets him. 

 

I'm just as depressed about it, but the truth is yesterday's news. You can't win these arguments when you're not in power and you have the might of the media working against you. It's not possible. 

 

This is what you're dealing with:

 

 

A man who responds to a question about being an habitual liar by trotting out a load of lies. And he has a party behind him that are prepared to follow suit, and a media in his corner that will amplify the lies and crush his opposition. They'll pull critical stories for him, all he needs to do is ask nicely. 

 

If Starmer opens his mouth about Europe it'll be the end of any chance he has of winning the next election. "Oh he wants to reopen the Brexit debate. That's not what the British people are interested in. We got Brexit done, we've moved on. He wants to take back your Brexit freedoms, he doesn't respect the will of the British people. We're focused on getting you through the cost of living crisis while he wants to cosy up to Macron etc etc". All complete bullshit but all stuff that fucking divs lap up. 

 

You're handing them a victory and a stick to beat you with all the way to polling day. Same with worker's pay. A load of these workers that are underwater would vote for Johnson tomorrow. 

 

The only way to win is to allow them to continue wrecking people's lives until eventually those people realise. Don't give them ANYTHING to attack you with in the meantime cos they'll kill you with it. 

 

[Dr Gloom 21760]

3 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

Might not be a bad thing. Give Streeting a chance. 

 

he's the one the tories are scared of. 

[Gemmill 44113]

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

he's the one the tories are scared of. 

With that response to Javid the other day, hee showed a better instinct for playing them at their own game than Starmer ever has. 

[Kid Dynamite 6964]

12 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Look at just a couple of things that have happened recently. 

 

The local elections in which the Tories got fucking mauled and lost over 500 seats. And the prevailing view of all major news outlets was that it was not a great night for Johnson, but he could be pleased as it left Labour leader Starmer with a lot more questions than answers. Eh?! 

 

Then the confidence vote. 41% of his party vote against him, and members of the cabinet are immediately on twitter calling it a great victory which puts Partygate to bed, and allows us all to move on. And broadly speaking, that's what's happened. Never mind the fact that it was an absolutely terrible result for him, he just keeps on rolling and the press largely lets him. 

 

I'm just as depressed about it, but the truth is yesterday's news. You can't win these arguments when you're not in power and you have the might of the media working against you. It's not possible. 

 

This is what you're dealing with:

 

 

A man who responds to a question about being an habitual liar by trotting out a load of lies. And he has a party behind him that are prepared to follow suit, and a media in his corner that will amplify the lies and crush his opposition. They'll pull critical stories for him, all he needs to do is ask nicely. 

 

If Starmer opens his mouth about Europe it'll be the end of any chance he has of winning the next election. "Oh he wants to reopen the Brexit debate. That's not what the British people are interested in. We got Brexit done, we've moved on. He wants to take back your Brexit freedoms, he doesn't respect the will of the British people. We're focused on getting you through the cost of living crisis while he wants to cosy up to Macron etc etc". All complete bullshit but all stuff that fucking divs lap up. 

 

You're handing them a victory and a stick to beat you with all the way to polling day. Same with worker's pay. A load of these workers that are underwater would vote for Johnson tomorrow. 

 

The only way to win is to allow them to continue wrecking people's lives until eventually those people realise. Don't give them ANYTHING to attack you with in the meantime cos they'll kill you with it. 

 

What some of that shows though is irrespective of what the papers say, Joe Public can see through it and will be voting this shower of shit out at the next GE

[spongebob toonpants 3902]

9 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Look at just a couple of things that have happened recently. 

 

The local elections in which the Tories got fucking mauled and lost over 500 seats. And the prevailing view of all major news outlets was that it was not a great night for Johnson, but he could be pleased as it left Labour leader Starmer with a lot more questions than answers. Eh?! 

 

Then the confidence vote. 41% of his party vote against him, and members of the cabinet are immediately on twitter calling it a great victory which puts Partygate to bed, and allows us all to move on. And broadly speaking, that's what's happened. Never mind the fact that it was an absolutely terrible result for him, he just keeps on rolling and the press largely lets him. 

 

I'm just as depressed about it, but the truth is yesterday's news. You can't win these arguments when you're not in power and you have the might of the media working against you. It's not possible. 

 

This is what you're dealing with:

 

 

A man who responds to a question about being an habitual liar by trotting out a load of lies. And he has a party behind him that are prepared to follow suit, and a media in his corner that will amplify the lies and crush his opposition. They'll pull critical stories for him, all he needs to do is ask nicely. 

 

If Starmer opens his mouth about Europe it'll be the end of any chance he has of winning the next election. "Oh he wants to reopen the Brexit debate. That's not what the British people are interested in. We got Brexit done, we've moved on. He wants to take back your Brexit freedoms, he doesn't respect the will of the British people. We're focused on getting you through the cost of living crisis while he wants to cosy up to Macron etc etc". All complete bullshit but all stuff that fucking divs lap up. 

 

You're handing them a victory and a stick to beat you with all the way to polling day. Same with worker's pay. A load of these workers that are underwater would vote for Johnson tomorrow. 

 

The only way to win is to allow them to continue wrecking people's lives until eventually those people realise. Don't give them ANYTHING to attack you with in the meantime cos they'll kill you with it. 

 

Then what happens when they limp into power, you think the press are going to cheer them on all of a sudden

The Tories are a beaten rudderless rabble of incompetence. Labour should be on full attack and crushing them into the dirt.

The idea that Starmer will suddenly turn radical in power is barmy. The best you can hope for is he shores up the economy, gets things on a level footing before getting booted out after 4 years. That's not enough imo

[Kid Dynamite 6964]

Withdrawing from the Human Rights Bill so we can deport people unchallenged. These cunts are literally half way to 1939 Germany 

[Rayvin 5151]

49 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I've got to admit that I'm finding it incredibly depressing that even on a "lefty" forum such as this the viewpoint that it's not even worth trying to win an argument about Europe or workers pay because the media won't allow it is so prevelant

 

While there is some good debate in here, it is ultimately an echo chamber. It's notable that very few discussions on here ever go down nuanced paths - the majority either agrees with you, or you're satan. Sometimes some of us are on the wrong side of that, other times we're not

 

All that youthful angst that makes it like this, IMO  

[Monkeys Fist 41931]

And that we are totally right.