Politics

[Renton 21462]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

As I've made clear before, I'm presently a single issue voter. That issue isn't nuclear power (I agree with your stance on that incidentally).

 

The Greens aren't going to win power though so what their other positions are don't really matter to me.

 

It's a wasted vote insofar as attempting to remove the Tories, it's not a wasted vote in terms of pressuring Labour.

 

There's a real chance Labour could win the biggest share of votes next GE yet the tories will win far more seats. I personally think if this happened it would increase the pressure for PR. As for the Greens, their stance against nuclear is both ludicrous and self-defeating, and it shows that they have an unscientific dogmatic mindset. As for rejoining the EU (I assume this is your single issue), this will take a generation but I am certain Labour would have us moving in that direction (as its what they want), at least joining the EEA and regaining FoM. Practically speaking, Labour is your best bet. 

[Rayvin 5189]

Just now, Renton said:

 

There's a real chance Labour could win the biggest share of votes next GE yet the tories will win far more seats. I personally think if this happened it would increase the pressure for PR. As for the Greens, their stance against nuclear is both ludicrous and self-defeating, and it shows that they have an unscientific dogmatic mindset. As for rejoining the EU (I assume this is your single issue), this will take a generation but I am certain Labour would have us moving in that direction (as its what they want), at least joining the EEA and regaining FoM. Practically speaking, Labour is your best bet. 

 

I agree that Labour are the best bet for it to happen, but only if they believe there are votes in it. I am useless to my cause by throwing my vote at Labour and trusting them to just get it done anyway when they've already broken that particular trust in the short time Starmer has been in charge. So my choice is to be taken for granted by a party that is pandering to gammons, or to stand to the side and stick to what I believe is the single most important political issue this country has to deal with, which is rejoining the EU.

 

It's not an easy choice, and I'm very aware that if I'm representative of a decent number of people (which I suspect I am given the numbers involved in moves towards the Greens and LDs) that it could mean bringing about another Tory government, but if we elect a Labour one that isn't interested in the issue then I'm no further forward than I would be under the Tories. If Labour come to understand that there is a serious vote winning proposition in rejoining the EU, they may pivot to it quicker than they would if I just throw in with the gammons and vote for them anyway.

 

It's a long game, I'll grant you. And I'm under no real illusions that my vote is completely insignificant and this so called 'pressure' will likely not amount to much. But then I've never cast a vote in my entire life that actually mattered anyway (other than, ironically, the EU one) so I mean, what difference does it really make anyway?

[Rayvin 5189]

The PR point is fair but I'd need to be really convinced before I put a secondary issue ahead of a primary one.

[Renton 21462]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I agree that Labour are the best bet for it to happen, but only if they believe there are votes in it. I am useless to my cause by throwing my vote at Labour and trusting them to just get it done anyway when they've already broken that particular trust in the short time Starmer has been in charge. So my choice is to be taken for granted by a party that is pandering to gammons, or to stand to the side and stick to what I believe is the single most important political issue this country has to deal with, which is rejoining the EU.

 

It's not an easy choice, and I'm very aware that if I'm representative of a decent number of people (which I suspect I am given the numbers involved in moves towards the Greens and LDs) that it could mean bringing about another Tory government, but if we elect a Labour one that isn't interested in the issue then I'm no further forward than I would be under the Tories. If Labour come to understand that there is a serious vote winning proposition in rejoining the EU, they may pivot to it quicker than they would if I just throw in with the gammons and vote for them anyway.

 

It's a long game, I'll grant you. And I'm under no real illusions that my vote is completely insignificant and this so called 'pressure' will likely not amount to much. But then I've never cast a vote in my entire life that actually mattered anyway (other than, ironically, the EU one) so I mean, what difference does it really make anyway?

 

Well ultimately there's no point in getting into the argument of whether a  single vote matters or not. They do collectively and that is what Labour (and all the others) are trying to achieve. Do you think Starmer doesn't want to rejoin the EU? Of course he does. So why doesn't he have it in his manifesto? Because he, and Labour strategists have decided the issue is far too toxic to tackle head on. Do you think you know better? I don't like his new slogan "Make Brexit Work" either, but the more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with it, as, with the exception of rejoining, it opens up a myriad of possibilities of closer relationships with the EU. Personally, I think some form of EEA membership is right for our country now rather than full membership, and I believe this is where we would head. Would you accept this or are you too much of a purist? 

[Rayvin 5189]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Well ultimately there's no point in getting into the argument of whether a  single vote matters or not. They do collectively and that is what Labour (and all the others) are trying to achieve. Do you think Starmer doesn't want to rejoin the EU? Of course he does. So why doesn't he have it in his manifesto? Because he, and Labour strategists have decided the issue is far too toxic to tackle head on. Do you think you know better? I don't like his new slogan "Make Brexit Work" either, but the more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with it, as, with the exception of rejoining, it opens up a myriad of possibilities of closer relationships with the EU. Personally, I think some form of EEA membership is right for our country now rather than full membership, and I believe this is where we would head. Would you accept this or are you too much of a purist? 

 

I'd accept anything that restores freedom of movement. So I can leave more easily  

 

It's not about whether or not I know better than them, it's not my job to win them the election. It's about being an active part of their thinking - they will either group me under "this bloke wants back in the EU but he'll vote Labour anyway so his first loyalty is to the party, meaning we can assume we'll get his vote no matter what" or they will have me under "this bloke wants back in the EU and was prepared to leave the party over it, that's a vote lost that we would otherwise have". Which of those two positions is more likely to get me what I want?

 

Myself and my issue are only relevant in their thinking if I'm being weighed up against their gains by going the other way - the only way I can diminish the appeal of the gammon appeasement is by sitting on the other side to them. And frankly it's a pretty lost cause based on how things seem to be, but I'm sticking to it because the right thing for this country is to grow the fuck up, admit we were wrong, and REJOIN THE FUCKING EU.

[Renton 21462]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'd accept anything that restores freedom of movement. So I can leave more easily  

 

It's not about whether or not I know better than them, it's not my job to win them the election. It's about being an active part of their thinking - they will either group me under "this bloke wants back in the EU but he'll vote Labour anyway so his first loyalty is to the party, meaning we can assume we'll get his vote no matter what" or they will have me under "this bloke wants back in the EU and was prepared to leave the party over it, that's a vote lost that we would otherwise have". Which of those two positions is more likely to get me what I want?

 

Myself and my issue are only relevant in their thinking if I'm being weighed up against their gains by going the other way - the only way I can diminish the appeal of the gammon appeasement is by sitting on the other side to them. And frankly it's a pretty lost cause based on how things seem to be, but I'm sticking to it because the right thing for this country is to grow the fuck up, admit we were wrong, and REJOIN THE FUCKING EU.

 

Honestly, we won't rejoin the EU in a generation. Do you think they would all accept us? Could the UK population be swayed with the loss of rebate and possibly (unlikely imo) needing to join the Euro and/or Schengen. I would love to rejoin but it's not happening. EEA would solve 90% of NI and get you your FoM back, draw us back in line with the likes of Norway. I's be very happy with that. 

[Rayvin 5189]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Honestly, we won't rejoin the EU in a generation. Do you think they would all accept us? Could the UK population be swayed with the loss of rebate and possibly (unlikely imo) needing to join the Euro and/or Schengen. I would love to rejoin but it's not happening. EEA would solve 90% of NI and get you your FoM back, draw us back in line with the likes of Norway. I's be very happy with that. 

 

Like I said, I'd take anything that puts FoM back on the table really. That doesn't change the fact that I need to commit to the position though.

 

EDIT - As for the EU, whether they take us back or not matters less to me than the party I vote for at least trying to make it happen.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rayvin

[Gemmill 44569]

You can do what you want with your vote but, if you recognise that a Labour govt would be better for those less fortunate than you, but still won't vote for them because they won't do exactly what you want re the EU, I'd argue that that's as bad as someone that votes Tory cos they don't give a fuck about those less fortunate than them. 

 

It might even be worse. 

[Rayvin 5189]

4 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

You can do what you want with your vote but, if you recognise that a Labour govt would be better for those less fortunate than you, but still won't vote for them because they won't do exactly what you want re the EU, I'd argue that that's as bad as someone that votes Tory cos they don't give a fuck about those less fortunate than them. 

 

It might even be worse. 

 

I'd argue that no matter what Labour do while in power and out of the EU, it's not going to have as significant an impact on the lives of the less fortunate as rejoining the EU would in terms of the economic prosperity of this country. And moreover, I'd suggest that not taking a stand on this point is as bad as someone who votes Tory.

 

It might even be worse.

[Gemmill 44569]

 

OK, and presumably you think LET'S RE-OPEN THE BREXIT DEBATE is an election winning strategy. The tories fucking WISH Starmer would do this man. 

[Renton 21462]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

OK, and presumably you think LET'S RE-OPEN THE BREXIT DEBATE is an election winning strategy. The tories fucking WISH Starmer would do this man. 

 

Absolutely, they are constantly prodding trying to get a reaction (although as Brexit evidently gets more shit this is decreasing). I'm beginning to get Starmer's strategy now. Also, I just think he would be a decent PM. He's wthe type of leader we need regardless of partisan politics.  

[Rayvin 5189]

9 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

OK, and presumably you think LET'S RE-OPEN THE BREXIT DEBATE is an election winning strategy. The tories fucking WISH Starmer would do this man. 

 

You came up with some arbitrary bullshit about the morality of my choice so I casually threw it back at you.

 

I agree, they're not going to win the election by reopening the Brexit debate (despite the significant recent shifts in this opinion). But I remain convinced that this country is on the road to nowhere until that happens, and that it's not going to happen if the people who believe this don't make themselves visible in an electoral sense. The sooner we get to that point, the better.

 

I remain unconvinced that they're going to win the election either way fwiw - we're all getting very excited about the last two weeks, but the Tories were utterly untouchable prior to that and once they dispense with Johnson, which they will, they'll get a boost. Starmer winning one trick doesn't mean he's got this all worked out. As I said earlier though, I'm prepared to be convinced of this if he starts actually getting somewhere.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rayvin

[Gemmill 44569]

So you recognise that reopening the Brexit debate would cost them the election, but you'll withhold your vote unless they press that self destruct button? 

 

Versus the idea of them getting into government AND THEN talking from inside the tent about what a mess the country is in because of Brexit. Or at least quietly trying to mend relations with the EU. 

 

The second is practical and potentially doable, the former is just some absurd game of mutually assured destruction. 

[Gemmill 44569]

You can have my vote if you say the thing that you'll never get the chance to do because you said the thing in order to have my vote. 

[Rayvin 5189]

You can have my vote if you recognise that being honest with people and working towards a restoration of a normal relationship with the EU is the only way forward for our country, and that this groundwork should start happening now so that you have credibility with the public when they eventually twig later on - or even as they twig right now, as they have started to do.

 

You may have my vote if you are open and transparent about your intentions to play a longer term game with it, and ask me to be patient while you work towards this.

 

You may not have my vote if you campaign for election as leader on the basis of doing 1 and 2, and then decide to abandon both entirely once in power. This tells me that my concerns do not matter to you, and I cannot trust you to work towards them. It tells me that you have a 'power at any cost' mentality, and that the only way I can engage with you, is by representing a cost.

 

I do not recognise that opening the Brexit debate will cost them the election, I merely said that it wouldn't win them it. Those are two very different things. In my version, they're losing either way.

[Renton 21462]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You came up with some arbitrary bullshit about the morality of my choice so I casually threw it back at you.

 

I agree, they're not going to win the election by reopening the Brexit debate (despite the significant recent shifts in this opinion). But I remain convinced that this country is on the road to nowhere until that happens, and that it's not going to happen if the people who believe this don't make themselves visible in an electoral sense. The sooner we get to that point, the better.

 

I remain unconvinced that they're going to win the election either way fwiw - we're all getting very excited about the last two weeks, but the Tories were utterly untouchable prior to that and once they dispense with Johnson, which they will, they'll get a boost. Starmer winning one trick doesn't mean he's got this all worked out. As I said earlier though, I'm prepared to be convinced of this if he starts actually getting somewhere.

 

Fuck me Rayvin, you've just been sucker punched by Gemmill of all people on the politics thread. The shame.

 

I'm not basing anything on the last 2 weeks, the polls are showing a trend and things in this country are getting worse all the time which the tories are now unable to hide. There's no successor to Johnson that can appeal to the both the red and blue walls. I'm trying to apply logic to the situation (I'm often not correct of course). 

[Rayvin 5189]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Fuck me Rayvin, you've just been sucker punched by Gemmill of all people on the politics thread. The shame.

 

 

 

 

Like fuck man  He's misrepresented what I said and then run off into the hills with it.

[Renton 21462]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

You can have my vote if you recognise that being honest with people and working towards a restoration of a normal relationship with the EU is the only way forward for our country, and that this groundwork should start happening now so that you have credibility with the public when they eventually twig later on - or even as they twig right now, as they have started to do.

 

You may have my vote if you are open and transparent about your intentions to play a longer term game with it, and ask me to be patient while you work towards this.

 

You may not have my vote if you campaign for election as leader on the basis of doing 1 and 2, and then decide to abandon both entirely once in power. This tells me that my concerns do not matter to you, and I cannot trust you to work towards them. It tells me that you have a 'power at any cost' mentality, and that the only way I can engage with you, is by representing a cost.

 

I do not recognise that opening the Brexit debate will cost them the election, I merely said that it wouldn't win them it. Those are two very different things. In my version, they're losing either way.

 

We need a down vote button. You're being quite naïve and ridiculous. Three word slogans are all that matter now. "MAKE BREXIT WORK"*

 

* By rejoining EEA and preventing 90% of damage to our economy whilst appeasing the gammons. 

[ewerk 30409]

57 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'd accept anything that restores freedom of movement. So I can leave more easily  

You could always marry me?

£25k cash and no extras included.

[Rayvin 5189]

Just now, ewerk said:

You could always marry me?

£25k cash and no extras included.

 

That is close to tempting tbh.

[ewerk 30409]

Right, £20k. That's my final offer.

[ewerk 30409]

But you do have to vote Labour.

[Gemmill 44569]

I'd love to know how, in the world in which we live, he's supposed to have this grown up "Hey guys.... Let's talk about our good friends, the EU, and how things could just be peachy again if maybe we started thinking about rejoining. Don't get me wrong guys, there could be some improvements, but let's just sit down and talk about things in a calm manner" conversation. 

 

When all that would matter is the Daily Mail headlines STARMER BETRAYS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, etc etc. Johnson immediately back on the offensive talking about how Labour doesn't respect democracy etc. Recipe for disaster. 

 

The Labour Party already has an almost impossible needle to thread in order to win voters back at either end of the political spectrum. The idea that now is the time for some fantasy campfire chat about rejoining the EU is just insane. 

[Rayvin 5189]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

We need a down vote button. You're being quite naïve and ridiculous. Three word slogans are all that matter now. "MAKE BREXIT WORK"*

 

* By rejoining EEA and preventing 90% of damage to our economy whilst appeasing the gammons. 

 

If it helps at all, I'm prepared to accept the heavy judgement that you and Gemmill (and frankly, anyone else) both think that Starmer getting lucky with a government crisis he had no hand in developing, and which he finally managed to land a blow with on about his 500th fucking try, means he's fucking certain to win the next election as long as I vote for him.

 

I accept that you think I am naive for not believing this. It's tough to hear this, but somehow, I'll live.

[Rayvin 5189]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

But you do have to vote Labour.

 

I mean if I'm getting back into the single market they can have my vote all day long tbh.