Politics

[Gemmill 44561]

 

u wot mate

[Renton 21451]

Labour should just scrap the conference altogether, no good ever comes out of it nowadays.

[ewerk 30409]

8 minutes ago, NJS said:

Nationalisation, income tax rates, abolishing UC and tuition fees all effectively ruled out. 

 

Lots of others not mentioned as yet like house of Lords abolition. 

He never promised nationalisation but common ownership, the two ideas are not the same. 

He pledged to increase income tax on the top 5%, something he hasn't rowed back on.

I can't see anything that says he's changed his mind on scrapping UC or tuition fees?

[NJS 4375]

I think most people took common ownership to mean nationalisation - I honestly don't know what common ownership would mean apart from a get out clause. 

 

Reeves has repeated ruled out income tax rises for the top 5%.

 

 

[Rayvin 5189]

He had a stridently pro-EU view going into the leadership election which was binned almost as soon as he took power, ultimately culminating in signing off on the one of the worst possible deals we could have managed.

 

Whether you agree with his stance on that or not, this is a pledge he effectively lied about to win over people like me, demonstrating how prepared he is to take us for granted.

 

As for everything else Labour, the left will very much consider that what they are doing within Labour now is what the centrists did under Corbyn. There were open letters to the press, leadership challenges, active undermining of strategy. I mean come on man, this war hasn't been waged by one side. And what I will say personally is that it was pathetic and risible when the centre did it, and its no better with the left doing it.

 

Yeah the left lost the last two times, but then the centre lost the two times before that. Maybe no one wants any iteration of Labour. We seem to be pinning all of our hopes on Johnson failing so spectacularly that Labour sneak in, having more or less admitted to ourselves that the party has no vision, strategy or competence to do what needs to be done to win on its own terms, whether from the left or centre.

 

Were we up against even a middling Tory PM, Starmer would lose convincingly. He'll probably lose convincingly even to Johnson, but you do have to allow for the possibility that things might get so bad that the electorate will try anything.

 

The issue with Labour isn't the membership, the left, the centre, any of it. The issue with Labour is that its a busted flush with no vision or ideas to sell to people, that it is entirely reactive in policy ideas, and that it is no longer prepared to stand up for what it believes in, so desperate it is to court the votes of the damned. It will lose because it stands for fuck all.

 

Been a while since I checked the polls I guess, are the Lib Dems and Greens still benefiting from Starmer's "brilliance" or has he stemmed the bleeding now?

[Rayvin 5189]

And I would be fascinated to understand why it is that the unions have shot down PR. That would have been one very thin silver lining from this conference but no, we are denied even that.

[Isegrim 9741]

On the puls of time…

[Renton 21451]

12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

He had a stridently pro-EU view going into the leadership election which was binned almost as soon as he took power, ultimately culminating in signing off on the one of the worst possible deals we could have managed.

 

Whether you agree with his stance on that or not, this is a pledge he effectively lied about to win over people like me, demonstrating how prepared he is to take us for granted.

 

As for everything else Labour, the left will very much consider that what they are doing within Labour now is what the centrists did under Corbyn. There were open letters to the press, leadership challenges, active undermining of strategy. I mean come on man, this war hasn't been waged by one side. And what I will say personally is that it was pathetic and risible when the centre did it, and its no better with the left doing it.

 

Yeah the left lost the last two times, but then the centre lost the two times before that. Maybe no one wants any iteration of Labour. We seem to be pinning all of our hopes on Johnson failing so spectacularly that Labour sneak in, having more or less admitted to ourselves that the party has no vision, strategy or competence to do what needs to be done to win on its own terms, whether from the left or centre.

 

Were we up against even a middling Tory PM, Starmer would lose convincingly. He'll probably lose convincingly even to Johnson, but you do have to allow for the possibility that things might get so bad that the electorate will try anything.

 

The issue with Labour isn't the membership, the left, the centre, any of it. The issue with Labour is that its a busted flush with no vision or ideas to sell to people, that it is entirely reactive in policy ideas, and that it is no longer prepared to stand up for what it believes in, so desperate it is to court the votes of the damned. It will lose because it stands for fuck all.

 

Been a while since I checked the polls I guess, are the Lib Dems and Greens still benefiting from Starmer's "brilliance" or has he stemmed the bleeding now?

 

The polls are showing a clear trend in favour of labour. Yes, the centrist labour party lost in 2010 and 2015 (was Miliband really even centrist though?) but Corbyn completely fucked up the party by being virtually unelectable. His stance on Brexit and his performance in the 2019 GE was catastrophic. The left wing of the Labour party are absolutely unelectable, you must know this, surely? It's not an argument I'm wanting to have again tbh, if you can't see the good a centrist labour party could do within the limitations of the current political paradigm in this country (which is much more right wing than most of Europe and that I would personally like), then perhaps you deserve Johnson et al. Corbyn ruined the party, end of. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Renton

[Renton 21451]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

And I would be fascinated to understand why it is that the unions have shot down PR. That would have been one very thin silver lining from this conference but no, we are denied even that.

 

I'm with you on this mind. I don't know the reason for it but I bet it is due to the union's self interest. 

[Rayvin 5189]

13 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

The polls are showing a clear trend in favour of labour. Yes, the centrist labour party lost in 2010 and 2015 (was Miliband really even centrist though?) but Corbyn completely fucked up the party by being virtually unelectable. His stance on Brexit and his performance in the 2019 GE was catastrophic. The left wing of the Labour party are absolutely unelectable, you must know this, surely? It's not an argument I'm wanting to have again tbh, if you can't see the good a centrist labour party could do within the limitations of the current political paradigm in this country (which is much more right wing than most of Europe and that I would personally like), then perhaps you deserve Johnson et al. Corbyn ruined the party, end of. 

 

The party was ruined by its stance over austerity, without which Corbyn wouldn't even have been a thing. It was craven and fearful then and it's craven and fearful now.

 

I'm not asking for any particular wing of the party to be at the helm, I'm asking for anyone with a semblance of a vision for a better future for people to rally around.

 

I know you don't believe in vision, you seem to think we can get by with just not being as shit as the other guy, but I'm struggling to see it myself. I'm sure as fuck not motivated to vote for it.

[Renton 21451]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The party was ruined by its stance over austerity, without which Corbyn wouldn't even have been a thing. It was craven and fearful then and it's craven and fearful now.

 

I'm not asking for any particular wing of the party to be at the helm, I'm asking for anyone with a semblance of a vision for a better future for people to rally around.

 

I know you don't believe in vision, you seem to think we can get by with just not being as shit as the other guy, but I'm struggling to see it myself. I'm sure as fuck not motivated to vote for it.

 

Your first point is good, there was a failure to be brave and control the narrative after 2010, and possibly even before the 2010 GE. Ultimately perhaps that set Labour on course for the disaster of Corbyn, although of course Miliband has to take blame for changing the way leaders were selected. He's an example of a good politician who should never have been leader. Miliband I mean, Corbyn was a shit leader and shit politician full stop.

 

The second point is a bit unfair imo. Starmer has not been leader that long and it is a very strange time for the country. Sounds like you don't even want to give him the benefit of the doubt before a manifesto has even been drafted. Things like abolishing the charitable status of private schools are potentially big policy statements. But it's all about regaining power, as you know. 

[ewerk 30409]

14 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The party was ruined by its stance over austerity, without which Corbyn wouldn't even have been a thing. It was craven and fearful then and it's craven and fearful now.

 

I'm not asking for any particular wing of the party to be at the helm, I'm asking for anyone with a semblance of a vision for a better future for people to rally around.

 

I know you don't believe in vision, you seem to think we can get by with just not being as shit as the other guy, but I'm struggling to see it myself. I'm sure as fuck not motivated to vote for it.

 

Did you even read Starmer's 14,000 word essay? No? Well don't worry because no one else did either.

[Rayvin 5189]

I mean, first off I can recall a time not that far back when you and I were of a similar mind on Starmer so im not sure what changed for you here but I haven't had the same transformative experience.

 

Secondly, Starmer is literally continuing Corbyn's Brexit stance. And while it may be lost in the annals of time now, I rejected Corbyn over the same damn thing I'm rejecting Starmer over. But my views aside, the fact remains the red wall voters are a ball and chain for this party irrespective of who is leading it. That old alliance is dead. The only viable long term solution is to cut the cord, form electoral pacts, and try to win power using the 54ish% of people in this country who vote for left leaning parties - and then instigate PR.

 

I could even maybe get away with holding my nose and voting for Brexitlite Labour if PR was on the table, just so that I'd never have to indulge this lunacy again, but it's clearly not on the table.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5189]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

Did you even read Starmer's 14,000 word essay? No? Well don't worry because no one else did either.

 

I read his paraphrased on in the guardian which claimed to be written by him. I even linked it in here. It said nothing inspiring.

[Rayvin 5189]

Yougov has the Tories at 39% holding firm, Labour at 32% (-3) and the LDs (+3%) and Greens (+2%) at 10 and 9 respectively.

 

Was 4 days ago so pre this weeks fiasco but that to me suggests that Labour are continuing to lose voters on the left while failing to win them on the right.

 

We really are entirely dependent on the government falling apart to win this, aren't we?

[Renton 21451]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Yougov has the Tories at 39% holding firm, Labour at 32% (-3) and the LDs (+3%) and Greens (+2%) at 10 and 9 respectively.

 

Was 4 days ago so pre this weeks fiasco but that to me suggests that Labour are continuing to lose voters on the left while failing to win them on the right.

 

We really are entirely dependent on the government falling apart to win this, aren't we?

 Your solution seems to be make labour completely unelectable, even if the government self destructs though? 

[Rayvin 5189]

10 minutes ago, Renton said:

 Your solution seems to be make labour completely unelectable, even if the government self destructs though? 

 

My solution would be for the party to stand front and centre and tell people truthfully why the country is in the shambles it is, and what we were going to do about it irrespective of any sacred cows. We are a nation of fucking adults whose political class treat them like children.

 

If people are wrong about something, they need to grow the fuck up and accept it. I said quite a few times that I was wrong to back Corbyn fwiw, I think Andy Burnham or Yvette Cooper would have been the better options for such a period of turmoil. At least I'm man enough to acknowledge that. I can't be doing with this babying of people who voted for Brexit, all this protecting them from the reality of their choice man, it's one of the most pathetic things I've seen in politics, perhaps more pathetic even than Brexit itself.

 

I would snap your hand off for a Blair or an Obama at this juncture but we've got nothing. No leadership, no strategy, just wait and see and a dollop of opportunism. We need to do better than this, surely.

 

The long term solution is the nation getting fucking real with itself, but it needs to be led towards that. A one off Labour victory against the worst Prime Minister the country has ever seen which will allow a holding pattern at best, and time enough for the Tories to sort themselves out again while Labour still doesn't come to terms with the fundamental problems it has, is not a solution. 

 

If Labour don't win next time out, maybe we will have to concede collectively that they aren't electable in any iteration of their current form, and that we need to actually come up with a real solution.

 

If they do win then I'll field all the "I told you so"s on offer, but even should that happen I don't think it'll be the kind of victory, or the kind of government, that this country needs. Not based on current evidence.

[Rayvin 5189]

Incidentally I'm laid up with a fever and a migraine so if all of this is bordering on (or entirely) incoherent then that'll be why.

 

I mean you'll be used to it anyway like, but this time I have a valid excuse.

[ewerk 30409]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 We are a nation of fucking adults whose political class treat them like children.

I mean they literally voted for this guy. I think you've too much faith in the British public.

[Gemmill 44561]

Aye. And people have been queuing up outside of petrol stations for a fucking week now. We are categorically not a nation of adults. 

[Renton 21451]

41 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Incidentally I'm laid up with a fever and a migraine so if all of this is bordering on (or entirely) incoherent then that'll be why.

 

I mean you'll be used to it anyway like, but this time I have a valid excuse.

 

Ha, no, you make a lot of sense and I largely agree. Think maybe you are being to harsh on Starmer and too early to judge. The impression I get from Starmer is he's not really a politician, which is a problem, but then neither is Johnson.

 

On an unconnected note, the more I look at your avator, the less I see an eagle and the more I see a balding oriental gentleman with a moustache and goatee. It's quite a mind fuck.  

[Dr Gloom 21868]

54 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

My solution would be for the party to stand front and centre and tell people truthfully why the country is in the shambles it is, and what we were going to do about it irrespective of any sacred cows. We are a nation of fucking adults whose political class treat them like children.

 

If people are wrong about something, they need to grow the fuck up and accept it. I said quite a few times that I was wrong to back Corbyn fwiw, I think Andy Burnham or Yvette Cooper would have been the better options for such a period of turmoil. At least I'm man enough to acknowledge that. I can't be doing with this babying of people who voted for Brexit, all this protecting them from the reality of their choice man, it's one of the most pathetic things I've seen in politics, perhaps more pathetic even than Brexit itself.

 

I would snap your hand off for a Blair or an Obama at this juncture but we've got nothing. No leadership, no strategy, just wait and see and a dollop of opportunism. We need to do better than this, surely.

 

The long term solution is the nation getting fucking real with itself, but it needs to be led towards that. A one off Labour victory against the worst Prime Minister the country has ever seen which will allow a holding pattern at best, and time enough for the Tories to sort themselves out again while Labour still doesn't come to terms with the fundamental problems it has, is not a solution. 

 

If Labour don't win next time out, maybe we will have to concede collectively that they aren't electable in any iteration of their current form, and that we need to actually come up with a real solution.

 

If they do win then I'll field all the "I told you so"s on offer, but even should that happen I don't think it'll be the kind of victory, or the kind of government, that this country needs. Not based on current evidence.

it's a good post. i have some sympathy for starmer, but share you frustrations and am starting to lose faith. the brexit position is a mess but in truth i don't know what the alternative. it's still too soon to go all in on rejoin. i think at some point he's going to have to be brave enough to turn the boat in that direction and point out what a mess of  the tories have made of brexit. 

[Dr Gloom 21868]

no debate at the labour conference about the fuel crisis - wasn't put forward by union sponsors but, unsurprisingly, there was one on israel, you know, the really important issue of the day. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5189]

Ok well I'm fully with you on Israel now. Not remotely close to being an important issue for the Labour Party. Even if we should be worrying about human rights, and I'm not sure we have the capacity for that at present, we should be directing it in a far more widespread way. Continuously harping on about Israel to the exclusion of all others frankly is antisemitic.

 

As for the EU - I don't see us rejoining any time soon either, but I don't think that's the platform Labour should stand on. It should be about making the best of where we are, all the while being very up front about why things are shit, and trying to encourage useful dialogue around the issue instead of pretending it isn't happening.

 

@Renton my issue now isn't really Starmer, it's the whole party. I'm as sick of Corbyn and his tribe (why are they even still relevant, why have they not fucked off?!) as I am of what I perceive to be a collective issue with the Labour moderates in their total lack of strategic vision.

 

I saw an article about Obama just now, saying its time for the rich to pay a bit more in taxes. He then clarified that this meant him too. Perfect - acknowledges his own wealth, acknowledges that he could do more, doesn't make a big fuss about it but lands the point. Still exudes leadership even now.

 

I wonder quite often why we don't have more Blairs and Obamas (flawed though they both were) and my leading theory is that they probably do exist, even within party machinations, but that every other political figure within a party thinks they can be the same thing, lacking the self awareness necessary to see that they're nothing of the sort. But your Blair and Obamas have to fight through these people to get to the position where they can take control, and it doesn't seem to happen that often. I mean I can't think of anyone in Labour who fits the bill but they must exist, surely.

 

For me, Starmer is a Biden. Can't win off his own back but maybe could win if his opponent was horrifying enough. And given that I've been pretty impressed with Biden in general, that's not a bad thing to be. I would still prefer something better though.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5189]

Oh and as for the avatar. Yeah I can now see that too and am concerned you've ruined it for me

 

Hopefully my brain writes it off as a feverish delusion.